[US Issue] Police and Texas teenage girl

[Beja]

``
I am just wondering..
When a family tries to behave their child with (calculated) beating, authorities consider it child abuse and may take the child away from her/his parents.
At the end of the day we have high schoolers who never been disciplined and grown like weed in rain forest, without order or respect for anyone.
Then they interact with the outside world without, weighs and measurement tools, and they don't know how to deal with social orders.. and then comes the police and beat them so they can behave themselves.. they may even kill them and the law is ok with that (many times) under the pretext of (self-defense) as if we are in Iraq. In third world African countries police don't shoot to kill, but to cripple the most dangerous criminals.. they shoot at legs and arms, not at hearts and heads. So how one understands that a police officer fired at teenagers or even drew their weapons at them, while in a pool and in bikinis.. kids 13 and 14 years old.. 3rd world societies' police use whips for these kids. It never comes to their minds that those kids are a threat to their lives.. that's laughable. But here they treat them as Enemy Combatant..
It's shame that we lag 3rd. world in knowing ends and means and draw our social life accordingly.
Where are we heading to, after lagging Africa in reasoning and China in trade and commerce? why don't our politicians listen to our economists and sociologists?

 

[Cableguy]

(...) as if we are in Iraq(...).. kids 13 and 14 years old.. (...) It never comes to their minds that those kids are a threat to their lives.. that's laughable.

I usually don't comment political related topics, this one kinda touches me in a soft spot...
1st, why Iraq? They are neither worse nor better than other countries who have just got out of civil war.
2nd, its really that laughable? In a country where a 10y old kid takes his dad gun and kills his mother and brother out of jealousy, where in one state you can walk around with a loaded gun, because "its a god given right to do so"... Yeah, a 13 or 14 year old with the correct (bad) attitude can be a real life threat to anyone, not only cops. USA is full of Hypocritical laws, that forbid some basic things, and then punishes for its lack. Here in France there's a discussion going on, in order to pass a law that will forbid a mother slapping his misbehaving child... If its aproved, in 10years time, we will have a wave of mothers getting hitter, and putted into coma, by her sun, who she wasn't allowed to touch.
Someone once said same thing that made me see life with different eyes...
"humanity will only learn to appreciate freedom, once forbided to exercise it"

 

[Beja]

Hi Cableguy,

What you said is not far from my text above.. you extended it.. What's going on in Iraq is not a civil war that should be between two parties, or between a government and a splinter party or a state that seeks self-determination.. but what's going on there is simply a chaos. And no one there can know from where a bullet will come. You can't know who your enemy is.
The child that kills his parent with their own gun is an example of bad discipline that I talked about.. if a child brakes a glass and hears "It's ok" or pour his milk intentionally and hears the same word , over and over.. if he hits a guest in the house, and the guest and the parent both tells him "it's ok", then he will think everything he does should be ok. Again.. so now you can see the child is in fact, a victim before being a criminal and the social system is responsible of his future acts. Ironically, if you remember the news of the latest Baltimore riots, a mother hardly beats her son in the street to get him off the demonstrations and take him home. this beating was aired on Youtube. then the city government and police hailed her as perfect mother, and called her action of beating the boy "Tough Love".. imagine.. and you put it, it's clearly a hypocrisy of a contradictory aimless system.

 

[Beja]

Oh, did I say aimless system.. not really..
In the tough love case above..if a mother beat a her child at home to teach him how to behave is child abuse, but if she beat him in street to protect the government the she is a hero. That same child if he called 911 from his home and told responding police that his mom beat him, then that hero will be arrested and charged with child abuse.. how do you call this.

 

[Troberg]

The issue in the story above was:

* that the police response was disproportional and used way too much force;
* that the police only targeted non-white kids.

On the first point, I agree. There wasn't any need for that level of violence in that situation.

On the second point, from what I can see, and from what the witnesses said, it's clear that the police use a "color code" to decide guilt and to determine their actions.

I can relate a story which happened to me: The party leader for the Swedish nazi party (Sweden Democrats) was in my town, holding a rally. I was there, as was my girl friend and my mother, and about 1000 more people, to protest against him (and maybe 50 people who were there to listen to him). Our protest was legal and peaceful.

Suddenly, about 30 armed policemen starts picking out people in the crowd, and hauling them away to a bus. These people were all kids with a "foreign" look, and they hadn't done anything wrong, and certainly less than many others. Me and my GF started questioning the police about why they only took dark skinned kids, but got no answer, just thinly veiled threats. At one point, my mother was standing smack in the middle of a group that the police collected, and they actively moved her aside so that they only got people who fit their color code. Even when I decided to try to push the issue and simply block them and not move, they didn't do anything to me. At one point, when they were using excessive force in a very unsportsmanlike 2 on 1 way, I even walked up to them, and physically shoved them away, but still, they didn't touch me as I didn't fit the color code. We got some of it on film, but not all (ran out of batteries before things went really bad).

After seeing how such a large force of policemen not only chose to side with nazis, but also act openly racist, I've lost all confidence in the Swedish police, and have vowed to never assist them in any way unless it directly benefits me. I simply do not trust them to not misuse any information I might give them.

As for physical punishment of children, I can just say that I don't believe in it. A lot of science studies has shown that it is counter-productive, that children who are beaten are more likely to misuse violence later in life. It also shows that it gives a quick effect, but it does not last long, and, as I said earlier, can be quite counter-productive in the long run. I can also say that, as a Swedish citizen, I can see that criminalizing physical punishment does not destroy society. We banned it in 1966, and further clarified it in 1979. That's a full generation, and Sweden is still working.

I feel that it's as obvious that we shouldn't spank our childran as it is that we shouldn't spank our wife (unless, of course, she likes it...). Yet, for some reason, we banned the beating of wives 1734, and it took 232 years before we got around to protecting the most fragile citizens of all. Heck, we've protected animals longer than we have protected our children...

 

[Beja]

Hi Trogberg and thanks for the thoughtful contribution... I do agree with most of what you wrote..
The issue of physical punishment is complex and i was supposed to be more careful than i did. Afterall kids look into your heart and not to the hand that beats them.. Unfortunately most parents' beatings are punishment and retaliation, not protection and education.. The state of heart of the parent, while carrying lite, calculated and controlled physical punishment, is immediately conveyed to the child and if it is clear from any self impurities and full of love and care, then the child will feel it and it wouldn't leave negative effects in the child's future life while at the same time strengthens his memory of of the mistake, and most probably he wouldn't repeat ut.. (Memory Palace) .

 

[Cableguy]

Sweden has always been very open minded, and European wise, a country other countries should look up to in matter of civil rights and social behaviour. That being said, a slap every once in a while do port long lasting results... It's like red wine, a single glass a day can make your life span bigger, while a bottle of it can have the opposite effect.
There's a huge difference between Nordic and Latin European societies, at almost every level. Latins need refrain, as 'their blood boils too quickly'... And worst, if no refrain is praticed, then an implicit 'go a head, do it' is given. Child attitude adjustment through the means of a slap on the but, on the wrists, end on the face, when actually needed can do just that, adjust their attitude.
But, using it without reasoning, without good sense, without justice, that is what is dangerous.
On the Police being racist... Don't take the order given to the squad, as policemen's choice. In recent years in Portugal, we had policemen's having to break up a peacefull manifestation of fellow policemens. They used the usual methods, water canons, batons, etc... A few days later, a new manif arose, the orders were the same, BUT the squad that had been given the order, refused to execute, and instead, just made sure that public safety was ensured.
Organisations are not racists, the men in charge of them are!

 

[Troberg]

Do you trust the average person to correctly make that judgement, to only use force in a controlled and calculated way? To not use it in anger or frustration? To not slap the child in the heat of the moment? To not spank a child when drunk?

I don't.

Also, allowing some physical punishment makes the entire legal process more complicated. Where to draw the line? By clearly stating "We do not allow any violence against Children!", a point is made, and there is not grey area.

There are other methods that are safer and more efficient. You need to learn to communicate with the child, to explain, and you need to understand the child.

Consider this: You can beat a dog into being obedient, but if you want it loving as well, you'll need to learn how to properly train it instead. The same goes for a child.

Also, consider this: You can beat someone into accepting your power over them, but no amount of beating will teach them independent critical thought. I'd much rather see my child grow up to be a free thinking rebel than an obedient slave.

 

[Troberg]

On the Police being racist... Don't take the order given to the squad, as policemen's choice. In recent years in Portugal, we had policemen's having to break up a peacefull manifestation of fellow policemens. They used the usual methods, water canons, batons, etc... A few days later, a new manif arose, the orders were the same, BUT the squad that had been given the order, refused to execute, and instead, just made sure that public safety was ensured.
Organisations are not racists, the men in charge of them are!

The problem is that, here, none of the police refuse, none of them urge the other to restrain themselves. I know there are good people in the police force, but if they don't take action to sort out the bad apples, they will, in some way, be part of the problem, and the bad apples will spoil the entire organization.

 

[Cableguy]

The problem is that, here, none of the police refuse, none of them urge the other to restrain themselves. I know there are good people in the police force, but if they don't take action to sort out the bad apples, they will, in some way, be part of the problem, and the bad apples will spoil the entire organization.

It takes a lot more than a uniform to go against a superior given order...

 

[Cableguy]

(...) To not use it in anger or frustration? To not slap the child in the heat of the moment? To not spank a child when drunk?

(...)
Consider this: You can beat a dog into being obedient, but if you want it loving as well, you'll need to learn how to properly train it instead.
(...)
I'd much rather see my child grow up to be a free thinking rebel than an obedient slave.

1st - it won't be a law that will prevent a drunk from beating his kid, as proven by the 'not driving under the influence' law's... Drunk drivers are still number one cause of fatal tragic related accidents.
2nd - have you ever been to dog dressing school? They use several kinds of violence in order to 'train' the animal...
3rd - I can agree that I prefer a rebel free thinker child, but consider this...

A child usually rebels against his parents strictness. When he rebels against the institutionalised system, he easily becomes a criminal.

 

[qsrtech]

I was spanked and i turned out just fine

If i recall correctly, there's something to do with using a "tool" and "bare hands". I believe it was using a "tool" that creates the correct association. My mother's "tool" was usually a wooden spoon which is probably why i cook so good

At the end of the day children (and employees ) need discipline. There is a big difference between discipline and abuse. It's probably usually better if the mother is the one that does the "physical" discipline. That's how it was in my case anyway

 

[Beja]

Golden rules for behaving kids with beating:

1- Never ever beat him when you feel the slightest anger or upset
2- Avoid the head. (face is a big NO and it will cause immediate feeling of humiliation)
3- Don't pretend angry or put on angry face and look. and don't smile either.
4- Beating should be symbolic, not hurting not causing real pain.
5- Fill your heart with love and remember hearts talk to each other more efficiently than mouths.
6- The main message is to tell him (loudly) your disapproval of his behavior and not punishment.

 

[Troberg]

1st - it won't be a law that will prevent a drunk from beating his kid, as proven by the 'not driving under the influence' law's... Drunk drivers are still number one cause of fatal tragic related accidents.

No, but the laws will, over time, adjust the attitudes of society. There is much less drunk driving today than there was a few decades ago, and people react if they see someone drinking when they know they will later drive in a way that they didn't use to do.

You will not get all the drunk driving, nor all the child abusers, but there will be fewer of them, and people in general will not accept that behaviour. The law never expects to stop all crime, but it intends to make a difference.

2nd - have you ever been to dog dressing school? They use several kinds of violence in order to 'train' the animal...

Yes, actually, four times. They taught to never punish the dog, instead to enforce good behaviour and ignore bad behaviour. Since dogs "prime currency" is attention, they quickly get what they should and shouldn't do. Of course, you need to teach the dog "No!", but there is no need to use force. Understanding the animal and communicating in a way that it understands is key. Dogs want to be a "Good dog!", but they don't know how, so you need to explain it to them in a way that they understand. Punishing them don't teach them to be a "Good dog!", it only teaches them to not be a "Bad dog!", and there is a huge difference between these. If you want a happy, loving dog, teach instead of punish.

Case in Point: I have never used force against my dog. Yet, I've consistently managed to stack seven treats on her nose, tell her to stay, take a walk around the house and when I get back, she is sitting patiently waiting for the command that allows her to eat them.

3rd - I can agree that I prefer a rebel free thinker child, but consider this...
A child usually rebels against his parents strictness. When he rebels against the institutionalised system, he easily becomes a criminal.

And that's where it's important to also teach the child values.

I heard, and I don't know if it's true or not (perhaps someone can enlighten me), that civil disobedience is a standard subject in German schools. Now, with the German history, I can see why it's extra important to teach that sometimes you have to break the rules, and the importance of thinking for yourself, but I would still say that, for any country, it'd probably be the best subject on the curriculum, bar none. However, if the school teaches this or not, it's still the main responsibility of the parent to teach a child this.

We need to have a flexible attitude towards rules. We must evaluate them, and, if they make sense, follow them, and, if they are plainly wrong, rebel against them. If that makes us criminals, then so be it. However, one should not break the rules merely for personal gain, of course.

The best tool we can give our children for making these judgements is to instill basic values in them, basic human rights and the equal value of everybody. Once that is in place, the rest follows.

Then again, a child is like an arrow. We can draw the bow, aim and let the arrow fly, but once we release it, it's out of our control. If we made our arrow straight (and I don't mean that as a sexual orientation), it is more likely to fly true than if we have a crooked arrow, but circumstances outside our control can also make the arrow veer off target. We can only provide the best possible starting point, then hope for the best.

I was spanked and i turned out just fine

Everybody says that, but the sad truth is, many did not turn out fine. Sure, many did, but many didn't.

Golden rules for behaving kids with beating:
1- Never ever beat him when you feel the slightest anger or upset
2- Avoid the head. (face is a big NO and it will cause immediate feeling of humiliation)
3- Don't pretend angry or put on angry face and look. and don't smile either.
4- Beating should be symbolic, not hurting not causing real pain.
5- Fill your heart with love and remember hearts talk to each other more efficiently than mouths.
6- The main message is to tell him (loudly) your disapproval of his behavior and not punishment.

Once again, do you trust all parents to be able to follow those rules?

I don't.

And, even if I did, beatings is less effective and more risky than other methods, such as communication, so I see no reason to use it.