Apple business practive needs change!

[thedesolatesoul]

Erel got the point. And as a serious developer, it is also my duty to spot my customers to such points. Because many times, they MAY use iOS devices but they normally also neither thought deeply about the restrictions nor did they fully understand them.
And for many industrial usage, this restrictions are just not reasonable, with other words a "NoGo"

...but...but doesnt these restrictions mean iOS is considered more secure? Which is what enterprise customers are looking for. Almost all big companies I know use iOS these days (although it may change one day).

btw...by industrial usage, do you mean you need to interface with machinery etc?

So, to my eyes, Apple and Google are not very different.

+1 to that

I will not blame Beja for wanting to involve politics in this case because there are probably only politics that still have a chance to change things by law. I do not really see why we should dissuade him, although like many I think it's utopian and that the US government has no interest to go against its national companies (usually laws are made to support them, not to fight them). But the number of dreamers that really changed our world is countless. And it would be stupid to yell and quarrel because of a multinational company where none of us are working and whose we can very well boycott products.

+1 to that
I think he should get involved but he needs to get his arguments correct first.

 

[GKCS]

I dont talk about all the office people, who use their smartphones to check emails or just surf the internet a bit.

I talk about customers, who use the "smartphone" more like a normal PDA, or even a comfortable handheld solution for machinery control, mobile data control, just as a portable input and remote device, a mobile data-terminal for any kind of ERP systems, CNC and robot control up to whole production-process-control. From inventory data collecting up to warehouse management and many more.
This is NOT software for the masses, but highly customized software for individual purposes. Software where security aspects, data risk management, availability, and many more factors need to be observed.

Things which are not under your control make everything not more save, only more complex to handle. Especially for time sensitive processes, every external issue only cost money.

 

[Beja]

Thanks to all of you guys..

I don't know why we are failing to talk from one room.
I tirelessly and fairly repeatedly mentioned that for business and selling Apps, then the AppStore is perfect, safe and more secure.. period.
Also,
big companies have no problem with paying fees because they get them back at the end of the year.. if they didn't pay them for Apple services then they will pay them to the government at the end of the year.. so it is not a loss to them at all.

The problem I am talking about is when I write custom and properiatory software for a single company, or for my self. I have the system requirments
from my client, I write and test the application or can hire testers.. What Apple has to do with all this? why should I pay Apple $100 just to expose my
technolgy to them? They are not custodians of my company.

BTW: I am not attaking Apple, only defending my rights that are being violated by this company. Otherwise there is a lot to say about Apple and
everybody knows the exploitation of young Chinese girls and boys in the factories at Foxconn, China, where there is a high rate of monthly
suecide among these poor under-paid workers who worked extended hours and stuffed in small cages called rooms, like chickens without
the consideration of their well being, dignity and human value. If I am attaking it then I would call for the boycut of their products, be it iPhone
or iPad until work conditions of these poor your people is enhanced and treated them exactly as they are treating their workers in the US.

When you write or comment, please refrain from personalizing the discussion, nothing personal here.. if some started insulting others in defense of a company, then he or she will look like a paid agent of that company.. nothing else can describe him.

 

[HotShoe]

Do I like the way apple does business? No. Do I like the way they treat developers? No. That's why I CHOOSE not to develop for IOS. It's simple. It has nothing to do with rights that don't exist, it's my own decision. I don't see what trying to place blame is supposed to help. If you believe your rights have been violated then hire a lawyer and start a class action or standard law suit against Apple.

Screaming and waving arms around about some perceived violation of rights is just venting frustration and means absolutely nothing.

--- Jem

 

[Beja]

How on earth are you going to file class action without first building the class by talking to its individuals and discuss the case
and convince them to join hands, (or they convince you to end the effort)?

If you don't know your rights, I know mine.. The mobile software market is my market, and since Apple is holding a great
number of people by popularity of their product, then the (American) law requires them to play it fair.. They can not take
measures to exclude others.. but in this case, they are blackmailing developers by forcing them
to sign illegal agreement to rip them off $100 even if the developer didn't want their service. Again, and don't take me wrong,
they are perfectly entitled to charge for their ecommerce services and deduct 30% of the sales.. I am not talking about this and
I think I should have been clear on this by now. I am going to sign for their appstore service and 'am ok with that.. but when I
develop an App just for myself, then I don't want anyone to put his nose there.
I will develop for iOS (thanks to Erel who is making it possible) but for public apps only, like games and utilities, but for commercial
and industrial applications sold to individual clients, I will stick with Android.. The $100 is not a big deal, but it is about principle and
I am not that pragmatic.
I can not afford to hire lawyers to confront Apple's legal team, and that's why I am taking it to the public, starting
with politicians, writing to newspapers and if I had the time and energy I could take it to the street. My goal is to raise awareness
and share my information with others. No screaming no yelling.

 

[HotShoe]

How on earth are you going to file class action without first building the class by talking to its individuals and discuss the case
and convince them to join hands, (or they convince you to end the effort)?

If you don't know your rights, I know mine.. The mobile software market is my market, and since Apple is holding a great
number of people by popularity of their product, then the (American) law requires them to play it fair.. They can not take
measures to exclude others.. but in this case, they are blackmailing developers by forcing them
to sign illegal agreement to rip them off $100 even if the developer didn't want their service. A

Apples only responsibility is to protect its intellectual property, its stock holders, and it's proprietary infrastructure. Apple has the right to do that under U.S. and international law as long as it follows those laws. I don't understand what rights you believe you have that are being illegally violated.

You do NOT have the right to tell Apple what they can or cannot distribute, or how software is loaded to their devices. You can force your customers to jailbreak their devices (a violation of Apples rights under law, and against their terms of service), or you can choose not to develop for IOS because you disagree with their practices.

I went through a battle with Apple over the CUPS package not so long ago. That was with Google behind us and it failed. I can assure you that their attorneys know exactly what the law says and how to play the game, but it still leaves the choice with you and Apples customers. The best way to punish any company is with your wallet, so yes, talk about your frustrations and how they do business with developers, but be careful about accusing a huge corporation of breaking laws on open forums.

I don't disagree with some of your points, just in how you are going about it.

--- Jem

 

[Beja]

I don't understand what rights you believe you have that are being illegally violated.

Simply put: I want to take care of my cell phone. I want to install and uninstall to it any software I want because this is
my property in the first place.. I have paid full price for it, and Apple and its shareholders are already enjoying the profits
they made from selling it to me.

You do NOT have the right to tell Apple what they can or cannot distribute or how software is loaded to their devices

No I can't and I didn't tell them that. With regards to the software, it is not loaded into their device.. the moment I paid
them for the device, it became mine and they have nothing to do with it.. I can install whatever software I want, and the
company must lock the device against direct software installations. If I took them to court and they win, then this will be
a bad precedence. Any hardware manufacturer will lock their devices and ask for money (more than the original price) to
allow you to access your own device.. imagine computer manufacturers will find it a new goldmine, an who knows may be
Google and Samsung may also look into this and lock their devices.. It could also go to products other than phone, or even
other than electronics.. imagine you are in the highway and got a flat tire, but you had to call GM to allow you to install
a new tire after paying them some fees.. if this is not blackmailing then what is it?

On the other hand, Adam Smith style of free market doesn't work here.. kind of the past.

 

[WAZUMBi]

What's also funny is that some members of this forum have been pesting Erel to develop B4i, several threads, lots of wishes and "+1" posts, now that he's working on it, people complain about it, Make up your minds people!!!

Could not have been said better...

 

[Beja]

That's unfair.. to say the least..
I can't wait to buy b4i and start on it right away.. I always dreamed of programming for iPhone.. by no means I am against Apple's technology.. but against its attitude towards small developers and its unfair business practices.

 

[Beja]

Alright I now have an advice from internationally recognized scholar and law professor, and will act accordingly.
Now I know those in Washington are making laws on behalf of these corporations, and the law is in the latter's favor.
Some members said something close to this.. but if you present good wine in (any) cup then no one would like it..

 

[Beja]

The legal advice I received.

I am sorry I don’t know the technical field you are working in, but the real issue is capitalism, not technology. In capitalist systems, big companies control politics itself, and not only the market. Apple and similar companies win and blackmail the rest of us not because they have good lawyers, but because the LAW ITSELF is in their favor.


There is no point in trying to fight Apple, but you can’t win that way. Instead, use the capitalist system itself against Apple by going to the competition – work with Samsung because they share your interest in defeating Apple.. In the future, Samsung may become like Apple, but for now it will work with you because it is in their short term interest to do so.


I hope this makes sense, and good luck

 

[Informatix]

With the TAFTA (Trans-Atlantic Free Trade Agreement) coming soon, multinational companies will be able to sue a government when its laws restrict or prevent their business (I don't know how it's called in english, in french it's "le système de règlement des différends entre investisseurs et états"). So european countries might have to pay huge compensations each time they vote laws against tobacco, nuclear power, hormone-treated beef, shale gaz, GMO, etc. Many deputies of the European Union are hostile to this treaty, and particularly to this "système de règlement des différends", but when you face big companies and lobbies, with the american government behind them, the match seems lost in advance. The reality is trying to be as ugly and disturbing as these anticipation games and books where countries are ruled by and for big companies.

 

[HotShoe]

Apple is a fashion accessory, like jewelry. If you are part of that crowd, you have to have all the latest stuff, and it doesn't matter if there are better and cheaper alternatives. It's a culture in itself that will be loyal to Apple no matter what.

--- Jem

 

[Beja]

Apple is a fashion accessory, like jewelry. If you are part of that crowd, you have to have all the latest stuff, and it doesn't matter if there are better and cheaper alternatives. It's a culture in itself that will be loyal to Apple no matter what.

I hope people follow the point of this post. the point here is about a very specific issue.. that's when Apple mandates
the submission of your private app not intended for public.. I hope this is clear, although I mentioned it several times.
Anyways.. the matter is clear now and this is what I will do:
1- Use the company's AppStore to distribute my public apps.
2- Use Android and Android devices to install custom tailored Apps directly in the devices of my customers.

 

[HotShoe]

I understand the point of the post and my post above points out just how hard it will be to "punish" apple. Even if a law or court changes the way they treat developers, the Apple users will remain the same.

--- Jem

 

[Beja]

If developers moved away from Apple, then users, regardless of they fell in love with Apple, will find themselves
hanging in the air.. but this is not what I wish or call for.. Apple didn't hurt users (except with the high price).
If a company in Wall Street asked you to write a propitiatory app to predict stock fluctuations, built on data they
provided you, and had you sign a non-disclosure agreement, then submitting the app to Apple is a violation
to the NDA.
As I mentioned before I will split development projects between Apple and Android and fortunately we have the
tools at b4x to manage both.
Cheers!

 

[HotShoe]

You miss the point. As long as there are users and a market to sell apps, the developers will stay. They don't all hold the same views that you do. They go where the money is and are willing to put up with the other crap. As I said several messages ago, that's the choice you have to make. Not whether you like it or not, but whether you want to make sales to that market. It's a simple choice each dev has to make.

--- Jem

 

[Beja]

HotShoe,
Sorry but I bet you are not reading my replies at all.. I just said in the above reply (forget the rest) that I will develop for Apple except
the propitiatory apps.. and you forgot to comment on the Wall Street example. Now who is missing the point? I want to make sales to
the Apple market and will send my public Apps to them.. I don't know how clearer I can say it. Again the point is the custom-tailored propitiatory
Apps that involve confidential data, or an app for a very limited audience like your own kids.. I will develop this kind of apps for Android
because Google doesn't ask you to disclose your biz secrets or violate your contracts with your customers.
If some developers are happy disclosing their (or their costumers' secrets) to Apple and even pay Apple for that, then good for them.

 

[HotShoe]

Fair enough, the problem is solved then. I hope it works out for you man.

--- Jem

 

[Peter Simpson]

@Beja I see your point when you say that you really shouldn't have to pay to install your own personally developed app on your own device without going through Apple first, I mean nobody but you will see that app right.

If you are going through the app store then yes, Apple should indeed charge developers as they do($99 per year). But why the hell should a developer pay just to install an app on their own device, even for testing purposes. People, please do not quote software IP to me.

Google charges a one time fee of $25(I personally think that it should be more) for access to the Play Store, but you can develop and install your own app on your own device(or other devices) for free if you are not distributing through the Play Store. That's makes sense to me as a developer, paying Apple for me to test my own app on my own device is just annoying, but it's in their license agreement.

As a developer, if I don't agree with the Apple licence agreement for app development, I will simply not purchase an Apple device for that purpose.
Apart from an i7 2013 MacBook Pro that I've not used in about a year, I don't actually own any Apple devices It's hard enough trying to make a quick drink on the Play Store, on the App Store the changes are slightly better