I wish I didn't have to fiddle with working programs, but fit for private use and fit for public use are not the same thing. Sigh. In the last thread, I managed to get my simple shopping proggy working with html help added and so on. I have a second more complex version, which guess what, was working perfectly. I added the new stuff, 3 small event handlers and 2 lines in the app start from that simple proggy to the second proggy. Now the SIP doesn't show! The app start has ALWAYS said SIP (True). There is no SIP (False). So what sort of things hide the SIP? It can't be the browser because that is set visible = false. There isn't anything else!!!! Just some general ideas to start with please, I'll put the code up if that doesn't help. EDit, Sorry, I'm being seiously stupid, don't even ask! That's the trouble with my current state, you feel ok, so you start something, then adrenelin takes you into the fuzzy time. You don't know you are there initially, but eventually you need a nap. But by then you've been seriously dumb. I'll be glad when I'm well again.