B4J Question A few words about ABMaterial.

[Eme Fibonacci]

That's not a question it's just my opinion. I have not found a better place to put this post and maybe it will be moved.

Why ABMaterial is still unknown and difficult to learn?

Yes I know. Yes I know. It has a lot of information and a tutorial for Dummies.

But a good tutorial should be:

1) Initial concepts (some lines)

2) Installation (some lines)

3) A hello world (an empty template and comments).

3) Wow ... now a button.

4) ...

5) ..

10) Something more complex.

But this is not the reality of ABMaterial.

Yes I know. I can learn. But it's disconcerting how uninviting it is.
ABMaterial, for me for now, seems like a good idea executed incorrectly.

Please, again, this is just my opinion.

 

[alwaysbusy]

I'm aware documentation could be better, but I do have a day job and it is only time that is holding me back.

However:

1) go to abmaterial.com, Getting Started
2) same
3) An empty runnable template is provided in the zip
4) https://www.b4x.com/android/forum/threads/abmaterial-abmaterial-for-dummies-lessons.88346/#content
...
10) The demo, feedback and other example apps source code, included in the zip

 

[KMatle]

It should be: Thanks for your excellent work and it's for "free". I don't use it (so far) but good developers supporting B4x must be honored better.

 

[Mashiane]

As incredible as it may sound, the demo is always the beginning to learn this framework because it provides a lot of examples on how everything else is related. The issue is time and the willingness to go through something that you completely do not know. In most cases, the fear of everything that might seem complex is what hold people back, for my experience, but after going through everything it seemed a little easier to get through. Yes, there are those cases where you don't know and ask, first because something is not there or you don't know. Then you ask.

Someone started a thread here about 'what irritates you about the forum?', one answered that people ask the same thing because they are not prepared to read. Yes, it might seem an arrogant answer to say, "use the search, it works", but the reality is, the search does work and at times, it takes a lot of going through a variety of posts to find what you are looking for. Nicely so, Erel keeps updating the forum and it now has 'tags'.

AB has done a wonderful job and has as much as he could explained as much as possible of the concepts in the Demo. He has also improved the framework tremendously, has loaded multiple examples in the forum. Well, I have been following this eversince version 2.20, when I learned about it. Other people who have also get their hands dirty like Harris and the others have pitched in to share experiences, so there is vast knowledge here and an active community. Thing is, one has to do their own portion too, go through the Demo and learn the concept and then go through the code. Erel gave tips too on his ETP (see below). Learning ABM is a long journey as it evolves with more things and now ABM has labelled it 'stable'. Many of us are using it an a production environment without issues.

Yes, the documentation could be enhanced, but know this, we are all using about 50% of what ABM does and all that 50% is explained in the Demo (I stand to be corrected), in the forum and in some cases, if something does not exist, we request it as a 'wish' in the feedback app and AB is always willing to please. If something is broken, we 'bug' it, he investigates and corrects it if it warrants such.

Yes, the killer of most and all apps is lack of documentation but please in this instance, let's give AB some slack, the documentation to get us going IS THERE!

#MyOpinion

PS: I have documented too most of my ABM experiences here...

 

[DonManfred]

I don't use it (so far) but good developers supporting B4x must be honored better.

I did DONATED for it time ago (though i still do not use it). I saw the potential and Donated for it to support the Author.
Hopefully i´ll setup a Site with it in the Future. (the idea for it is there)

 

[moster67]

I also donated and only recently I started to "play" with it.

I confess, I also find it confusing. ABM is huge and within its samples, there is probably a wealth of information to help you but it can indeed be overwhelming.

Personally, I think it's easier to start with the smaller apps included in the download or simply using Erel's webapp samples for B4J here in the forum in order to get familiar with the concept and then gradually move over to ABM. This is what I am doing currently.

I also wish and think ABM would benefit from smaller tutorials (let us call them projects) to program smaller sites showing different arguments such as connecting to a DB backend, showing data in a grid and other common tasks and then I think the demo-app will make more sense for us beginners.

 

[Mashiane]

I also wish and think ABM would benefit from smaller tutorials (let us call them projects) to program smaller sites showing different arguments such as connecting to a DB backend, showing data in a grid and other common tasks and then I think the demo-app will make more sense for us beginners.

The feedback app included in the zip ABM download is a perfect example for your answer here as it covers all those things. I'm sure ABM has always encouraged that we also explore those as a learning curve, this is covered perfectly. More over, he availed the ABMGenerator to generate grid/db connectivity and most of the code in to do. That was someone's 'wish' which he gladly obliged. It would also help to run a search in the forum and just 'skim' what is there first. I have found that a soothing experience in my time of need.

ABMGenerator: Wish Request & Response with working Version

ABMGenerator: May 3, 2016 Tutorial

#MyTake

 

[moster67]

The feedback app included in the zip ABM download is a perfect example for your answer

I know that, as a matter of fact, I also wrote that working with the smaller demo-apps, it might be easier.
What I really meant is more of a tutorial and not only the simple demo-app. The concept of web-app is new for most of us and a walk-through how it works, explaining certain concepts etc would in my opinion make things easier.

 

[Mashiane]

Harris started ABM for Dummies, it's perfect. We are trying to also pitch in, see the video in this post, https://www.b4x.com/android/forum/t...terial-for-dummies-lessons.88346/#post-578902 for starters...

 

[moster67]

The thing is; this topic about ABM has been seen before here in the forum and this won't be the last one.
I don't think it is really ABM itself, it's the framework which is a bit haunting and scary for beginners

I mean, even starting with B4A and Android, you need some time to get to grips with Android. It's not the language itself, most VB-users will find the B4X-syntax very familiar but it takes time to understand the framework of Android. Same with iOS, we know the syntax but the iOS framework is different. I am sure it is the same for Java-developers; they will be familiar with Java but still they need time and tutorials/books to learn the concept of the Android-framework.

I think Tutorials, Walktroughs would help ABM to kick-off even more and faster. Of course, I understand that the author has limited time (who does not?) but I just wanted to point it out.

 

[Eme Fibonacci]

A complement:

I think ABmaterial is an incredible work. So I think that it could go ahead and be more popular. For this to happen more and more people should start learning.

I'm aware documentation could be better, but I do have a day job and it is only time that is holding me back.

I understand perfectly and I am grateful for this work.
I am not referring to ample documentation but to something more structured. More simple. More modular.
I would like to offer my vision of Dummie for "Getting Started" page. Just a few changes to make ABMaterial more inviting.

Again, thank you for you time and I wish ABmaterial will go beyond.

 

[mindful]

I think the most important concept one needs to handle before starting with ABM is the concept of webapps as they are different from what users from this forum are used to. And in my opinion is currently very easy to get started compared to a webapp written with php/java/python and html/css/angular/javascript/jquery/etc... using B4J with ABM you get to be a full stack (frontend and backend) developer which is not an easy thing with other tools (i am not talking about building great looking websites with some drag and drop builder). So to get a grips about the simplicity that comes with B4J and ABM one has to at least try to create a webapp in another language/tool ....

I am now struguling with php, html, css, jquery .. and have been for the past 2 months because my client wanted to use his billing solution (WHMCS) with the app that I am creating in B4J+ABM, and take my word i found it very confusing at first but once I exeercised a little somewhat it became easier, but at least 90% harder than B4J+ABM.

I for one think that the ABM framework is kind of "encapsulated" (I don't know what is the best word for what I am tring to say) as you can't code it wrong so you will have errors if you follow the guide lines found on abmaterial.com, example apps from the library, forum threads and RELEASE NOTES (there is a bunch of usefull info in the release notes of each version) so I must say that ABM frees a webapp developer from debugging with the browser dev tools which belive me is a very big thing!

I think that coding in B4A/i is harder than B4J+ABM (haven't started yet but will soon) but this is my first impresion from what I read from the forum - and I read a lot of threads

Anyway my point is very well explained in the photo from @Mashiane 's post (look above) which is from a video from Erel's ETP.

Also I don't really know what more could be done to make it easier than it is. I really can think about one thing only that can be made and that is documentation inside the IDE when you hover the class properties it could be usefull for begginers to see what that property or method does and they can decide if it helps but even these ideea needs a lot of effort and most of the properties and methods are self explainatory by their name.

I am time streesed as we all are but maybe someone finds the time to help AB with documenting methods and properties (all of them can be found in the xml file that ships with the library) and for this I am more than happy to donate and support the person/persons that will be doing this and AB could just verify - this way AB will have more time to grow the framework and provide support in the forum and the feedback app.

And my conclusion is we kind of have to be greatful that B4J+ABM exists as there is no other tool that can do it better and/or easier.

Regards,
Mihai

 

[Eme Fibonacci]

One more addition:

Many people talk about being grateful for a free work. I AM . I could never do a work as ABmaterial.
That is not the question. I know that in this forum many people can easily understand ABMaterial in a week or days or hours.

But believe me, there is life outside the forum.I have ever been there. I'm talking about millions of programmers and internet enthusiasts.

The point here is not to keep referencing us. The question is how to get more people involved and broaden the work.

 

[Mashiane]

One more addition:

Many people talk about being grateful for a free work. I AM . I could never do a work as ABmaterial.
That is not the question. I know that in this forum many people can easily understand ABMaterial in a week or days or hours.

But believe me, there is life outside the forum.I have ever been there. I'm talking about millions of programmers and internet enthusiasts.

The point here is not to keep referencing us. The question is how to get more people involved and broaden the work.

So far there are two South Africans I know in the forum, me and some cool dude called Johan. A couple of years ago I 'bumped' into this site by chance. I was running away from java, and having used NSBasic wanted something of the same feel. I do feel what you mean and its a valid point, and I'm sure there is a strategy somewhere in the 'minds that be' to extend this beyond anything and everywhere possible. Besides, Erel started an 'affiliate program'.... see what I mean...

 

[Harris]

ABMGenerator: May 3, 2016 Tutorial

DANG! I had completely missed this!

If ever there was a more complete example of ABM table and sheets - this IS it.
Since ( I believe ) 80 percent of a complex app consists of CRUD, the output resulting code generated gives the newcomer 95 percent of what they need to know about ABM apps. The other 20 percent is the page grid, templates, etc. The output contains all of what makes a CRUD page work - when you paste the results into the appropriate sections of a blank Template (like the one provided in each ABM distribution).

Soon I shall update the section on ABMGenerator and explain the finer points of this jewel... This is HUGE when it comes to learning / understanding ABM.

But this is not the reality of ABMaterial.

But this IS the reality of ABMaterial. We are here to help the best we can...

 

[Eme Fibonacci]

DANG! I had completely missed this!

If ever there was a more complete example of ABM table and sheets - this IS it.
Since ( I believe ) 80 percent of a complex app consists of CRUD, the output resulting code generated gives the newcomer 95 percent of what they need to know about ABM apps. The other 20 percent is the page grid, templates, etc. The output contains all of what makes a CRUD page work - when you paste the results into the appropriate sections of a blank Template (like the one provided in each ABM distribution).

Soon I shall update the section on ABMGenerator and explain the finer points of this jewel... This is HUGE when it comes to learning / understanding ABM.


But this IS the reality of ABMaterial. We are here to help the best we can...

I can help you to write/review a tutorial? For now I don´t know enough about but soon I will be able to do it.

 

[Harris]

Sounds great.
How about I write it, and you review it - and fill in the blanks from your (newbie - other eyes) perspective (before publishing) ?

I am jaded from what to expose / explain since I (mostly) know this stuff. However you may have a different perspective - did it make sense and do you now understand? This is the objective and how can (we) make this clear to those who desire a fundamental understanding of ABM.

Since you started this thread, I conclude you have a desire to know and proficiently use this framework. Yes, a bit complex at first, but when you (and others) get over that hump, all of us will be extremely delighted. Sliced bread compares well with ABM! This is freakin magic and we have one person to thank for it's creation and evolution.

Thanks

 

[Eme Fibonacci]

Sounds great.
How about I write it, and you review it - and fill in the blanks from your (newbie - other eyes) perspective (before publishing) ?

I am jaded from what to expose / explain since I (mostly) know this stuff. However you may have a different perspective - did it make sense and do you now understand? This is the objective and how can (we) make this clear to those who desire a fundamental understanding of ABM.

Since you started this thread, I conclude you have a desire to know and proficiently use this framework. Yes, a bit complex at first, but when you (and others) get over that hump, all of us will be extremely delighted. Sliced bread compares well with ABM! This is freakin magic and we have one person to thank for it's creation and evolution.

Thanks

Exactly, that's the idea. As a beginner I have a different point of view.

I'm about to start a website. I can do it in asp.net.

However, I consider the possibility of doing so using B4J and ABMaterial.

ASP.NET

Pros: Visual Studio. Tons of documentation. Big knowledge base (books, videos and more)

Cons: Integration between website with my android app and firebase and my tools made in B4J become more complex:

ABMaterial

Pros: It can run on my server. Easy to integrate with my android app and with my B4J tools.

Cons: I don't know yet

I'm starting to learn right now. I wil contact you soon and maybe we can do a better document.

Thank you.

 

[Harris]

Cons: I don't know yet

None...

 

[Harris]

I am time streesed as we all are but maybe someone finds the time to help AB with documenting methods and properties (all of them can be found in the xml file that ships with the library)

This would go a long way in helping us use ABM effectively - as I find "component.Type as Int" isn't very helpful... It leaves us wondering - what does this do and how do I apply it - leaving us confounded as to purpose?

Most of these we could fill in but some will require ab's input - where we shall him ask privately.

This would free ab to do what he does best - giving us (new) stuff we never dreamed possible unless we all possessed his IQ.

@alwaysbusy - can you start something where we can proceed?

It think this will explain how we feel.... It is with those sad eyes we look to you...