Hard Disk encryption - how to do that ?

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Max Koopman

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Dude, stop trying to scare people. Either post a PCAP file here with your encryption key in it that was being sent to microsoft or don't place non-information here.
To get a Pcap file. please use wireshark and a windows machine. If you cannot show this network information from your own computer, your information is most likely false.
So please, provide the information about your claim and not only from some random website that have nothing to do with bitlocker. Take all those years of ecperience that you might have since I was a twinkle in my father's eye and show me wrong by giving out this 'secret' infromation.
I think your story is incorrect unless you show me the private key leaving your compuoter by showing your network packets! You would really show me if you can show me the private key leaving from window 95, A version without bitlocker and no means to install it but according to your story will share the keys.
 

Diceman

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How do you expect Wireshark to be able to decipher the SSH data that is sent from the Bitlocker client software to the MS servers?
The article already stated than when your computer comes pre-installed with Windows 10, it will send the recovery keys to Microsoft when you log into your Microsoft account.
 

Max Koopman

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How do you expect Wireshark to be able to decipher the SSH data that is sent from the Bitlocker client software to the MS servers?
The article already stated than when your computer comes pre-installed with Windows 10, it will send the recovery keys to Microsoft when you log into your Microsoft account.
I do not expect to decipher that data and I'm not interested in the payload data of the packet. I'm interested in the IP Adress to which this data is sent. Also the portnumber to the used service would come in handy. If Microsoft is uploading your key without your knowledge than more security researchers would be looking into this and they would probably already know abou that particular IPAdress.
The fact that you can choose to upload your key to your live account, that has been present since windows 10. But this is absolutely something else from what you are claiming and you have the choice to not upload your key.

Also, the fact that you have the possibility to upload your key for save keeping does not automatically mean that your key is being sent to any government. If you really think that's the case, please link real security researchers claiming this and not some random website that gets money everytime someone clicks on a link.

Furthermore, you are free to believe every story on the internet. If you want to believe the earth is flat, please do so. But do not misinform people that have no idea about certain technology and espacially if you have zero proof.
 

Diceman

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I do not expect to decipher that data and I'm not interested in the payload data of the packet.

Really? In your last message you wanted me to post the PCAP file being sent to Microsoft. Now you're saying you're not interested in the payload after all. Sheesh. You keep changing your mind from one day to the next.

I'm interested in the IP Adress to which this data is sent. Also the portnumber to the used service would come in handy. If Microsoft is uploading your key without your knowledge than more security researchers would be looking into this and they would probably already know abou that particular IPAdress.
The fact that you can choose to upload your key to your live account, that has been present since windows 10. But this is absolutely something else from what you are claiming and you have the choice to not upload your key.

Apparently you never read the article. Let me summarize what the author said. I will add some visualization that may help clear things up:
  1. Go to a store that sells computers, like Best Buy
  2. Buy a pre-made computer with Windows 10 already installed on it
  3. Take it home
  4. Encrypt a volume using BitLocker
  5. The next time you sign into your Microsoft Account, it could be today or tomorrow or next week, your recovery key for the device you encrypted gets transmitted to Microsoft automatically. You have no way to prevent this.
  6. Why? Because this is how Best Buy installed Windows 10 on the computer. It made sending the recovery keys to MS automatic instead of by choice.
  7. You can check this by going to onedrive using this link https://onedrive.live.com/recoverykey to see if your recovery key is there. It may appear there even though you did not explicitly send it.
  8. According to the author of the article "If any of your Windows devices are listed, this means that Microsoft, or anyone who manages to access data in your Microsoft account, is technically able to unlock your encrypted disk, without your consent, as long as they physically have your computer."
  9. If the authorities confiscate your computer or laptop at customs, Microsoft has the ability to let them have access to your computer even though it was encrypted with BitLocker and you did not knowingly send your recovery keys to Microsoft. Normally the authorities would have to get a warrant but it also depends on which country you happen to be in at the time.
  10. Depending on the nature of the encrypted data, the strongest security is where you manage the keys yourself. You need to protect yourself from either the company (Microsoft et al) illegally relinquishing your keys or one of its employees selling your recovery keys to a 3rd party. People living in China should be very concerned now that Google and Apple have moved their cloud storage to China. When the Chinese government comes knocking at the door of Google or Apple, I doubt very much they will be carrying warrants.
  11. There have been countless attempts by our own alphabet agencies trying to gain back doors into secure computers without a warrant. That is what they do. That is their job. They are the largest employer of mathematicians for a reason. They will get the information they need at any cost, legal or otherwise. Snowden has shown us that laws do not apply to them. Back doors are the easiest way to accomplish that. That is why one of these agencies bribed RSA with $10 million to create a back door for their encryption software. https://thehackernews.com/2013/12/nsa-paid-10-million-bribe-to-rsa.html The FBI wanted Apple to create a back door for their encrypted iPhones 2 years ago. Lucky for us, Apple refused (this time). I personally wouldn't trust cloud services from Google or Amazon for storing sensitive information like medical data, legal briefs, or anything I wouldn't write on a postcard. If you think Microsoft is above reproach, then I have a bridge to sell you. All of these companies have billion dollar contracts from the government agencies they are suppose to be protecting us from. There is an intermingling of employees and data between the corporations and the agencies that makes it difficult to achieve a high level of security for customer data. If you think it is a good idea for the foxes to sleep with the hens at night, don't expect too many eggs for breakfast.
 

Max Koopman

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Really? In your last message you wanted me to post the PCAP file being sent to Microsoft. Now you're saying you're not interested in the payload after all. Sheesh. You keep changing your mind from one day to the next.



Apparently you never read the article. Let me summarize what the author said. I will add some visualization that may help clear things up:
  1. Go to a store that sells computers, like Best Buy
  2. Buy a pre-made computer with Windows 10 already installed on it
  3. Take it home
  4. Encrypt a volume using BitLocker
  5. The next time you sign into your Microsoft Account, it could be today or tomorrow or next week, your recovery key for the device you encrypted gets transmitted to Microsoft automatically. You have no way to prevent this.
  6. Why? Because this is how Best Buy installed Windows 10 on the computer. It made sending the recovery keys to MS automatic instead of by choice.
  7. You can check this by going to onedrive using this link https://onedrive.live.com/recoverykey to see if your recovery key is there. It may appear there even though you did not explicitly send it.
  8. According to the author of the article "If any of your Windows devices are listed, this means that Microsoft, or anyone who manages to access data in your Microsoft account, is technically able to unlock your encrypted disk, without your consent, as long as they physically have your computer."
  9. If the authorities confiscate your computer or laptop at customs, Microsoft has the ability to let them have access to your computer even though it was encrypted with BitLocker and you did not knowingly send your recovery keys to Microsoft. Normally the authorities would have to get a warrant but it also depends on which country you happen to be in at the time.
  10. Depending on the nature of the encrypted data, the strongest security is where you manage the keys yourself. You need to protect yourself from either the company (Microsoft et al) illegally relinquishing your keys or one of its employees selling your recovery keys to a 3rd party. People living in China should be very concerned now that Google and Apple have moved their cloud storage to China. When the Chinese government comes knocking at the door of Google or Apple, I doubt very much they will be carrying warrants.
  11. There have been countless attempts by our own alphabet agencies trying to gain back doors into secure computers without a warrant. That is what they do. That is their job. They are the largest employer of mathematicians for a reason. They will get the information they need at any cost, legal or otherwise. Snowden has shown us that laws do not apply to them. Back doors are the easiest way to accomplish that. That is why one of these agencies bribed RSA with $10 million to create a back door for their encryption software. https://thehackernews.com/2013/12/nsa-paid-10-million-bribe-to-rsa.html The FBI wanted Apple to create a back door for their encrypted iPhones 2 years ago. Lucky for us, Apple refused (this time). I personally wouldn't trust cloud services from Google or Amazon for storing sensitive information like medical data, legal briefs, or anything I wouldn't write on a postcard. If you think Microsoft is above reproach, then I have a bridge to sell you. All of these companies have billion dollar contracts from the government agencies they are suppose to be protecting us from. There is an intermingling of employees and data between the corporations and the agencies that makes it difficult to achieve a high level of security for customer data. If you think it is a good idea for the foxes to sleep with the hens at night, don't expect too many eggs for breakfast.
Correct, I haven't read the story. You know why. Because I read up on my security news through various wellknown security sites and your RANDOM webiste is not one of those on my list. You want a site I trust? Try this one : https://tech.slashdot.org/story/15/...has-your-encryption-key-if-you-use-windows-10

This is how trustworthy your site is : https://www.thewrap.com/the-intercept-admits-reporter-fabricated-quotes-invented-sources/.

furthermore :
Point 4 should be : Encrypt a volume using bitlocker and choose to save the key file somewhere on your disk and not place it online. Problem Solved!

The information that you can get from just an ipaddress and the port that your pc connects should be sufficient to prove you wrong. Because your key is not being sent, it is impossible to get this in a TCP packet or to sniff it in your lan. You can also install windows in a vm and monitor the network from there. Very nic that you have summarized the website but i'm asking you to backup your claim and so far I have seen absolutely nothing from you. Remember when I said that you can believe whatever you want? You still can, just don;t bother other people with your fake news!

Do you already have the IPAddress from a wireshark session? I thought you knew a lot about this subject? What is your excuse for not testing this out yourself? How do people in China buy computers at Best Buy? Or does Best buy ship their computers back to china again? What do Iphones have to do with Microsoft bitlocker security?
Why would Microsoft store billions and billions of Encryption keys and why are you the only 'reasearcher' claiming this?
 
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Diceman

Active Member
Licensed User
Correct, I haven't read the story. You know why. Because I read up on my security news through various wellknown security sites and your RANDOM webiste is not one of those on my list. You want a site I trust? Try this one : https://tech.slashdot.org/story/15/...has-your-encryption-key-if-you-use-windows-10

You state that you haven't read the story I posted yet you feel justified in criticizing it?
Here is what the author Micah Lee stated "ONE OF THE EXCELLENT FEATURES of new Windows devices is that disk encryption is built-in and turned on by default, protecting your data in case your device is lost or stolen. But what is less well-known is that, if you are like most users and login to Windows 10 using your Microsoft account, your computer automatically uploaded a copy of your recovery key — which can be used to unlock your encrypted disk — to Microsoft’s servers, probably without your knowledge and without an option to opt out."

Here is a comment from your trusted site slashdot in which has one poster says:
"For example, as soon as the OS (Win10) was released we see how the OS will send your keystrokes to Microsoft. Not just what you type into Cortana, IE, or Edge but ALL keystrokes are recorded by the OS. You can disable sending the data to Microsoft, but we have yet to find a way of disabling the keylogger built in to the Kernel. (recorded does not necessarily mean stored long term, but long enough to evaluate in memory.)

Due to that lack of trust, I may have installed Win10 but never created a MS or Azure account. Anything I do on the device is treated as public knowledge because the OS is built to remove privacy from end users. I won't use online banking on the PC with Win10, and logging in to anything is assessed under the assumption that someone from MS and the Government will have full access to the account. When I'm working on sensitive stuff I use Linux."

<-- This is from the link you posted! Do you see nothing wrong with Microsoft putting a keylogger into the Windows 10 kernel and then sending the data back to Microsoft? This comment is coming your trusted site, not mine. And you still don't think Microsoft is collecting passwords to access customer data? Do you think Microsoft put in a key logger in Windows 10 because they are running a contest to see who is the world's best typist? [head slap]



Juan Thompson never wrote the article that I posted. What does one have to do with the other? Using your misguided logic I could say the New York Times is all BS because their staff reporter Jayson Blair fabricated stories. So nothing NYT writes is now valid. Is that the extent of your argument? What about Claas Relotius from Der Spiegel who was CNN's international reporter of the year, who fabricated dozens of stories? Using your logic we have to say Der Spiegel & CNN are now totally bogus.

furthermore :
Point 4 should be : Encrypt a volume using bitlocker and choose to save the key file somewhere on your disk and not place it online. Problem Solved!

That was the point I was trying to make. The way Windows 10 is installed on the store-bought computers by default sends the BitLocker recovery keys to Microsoft without the user knowing anything about it. I don't know why you can't comprehend that.

The information that you can get from just an ipaddress and the port that your pc connects should be sufficient to prove you wrong. Because your key is not being sent, it is impossible to get this in a TCP packet or to sniff it in your lan. You can also install windows in a vm and monitor the network from there. Very nic that you have summarized the website but i'm asking you to backup your claim and so far I have seen absolutely nothing from you. Remember when I said that you can believe whatever you want? You still can, just don;t bother other people with your fake news!
Again, you didn't read the article. It concerns store-bought computers. I have been building my own computers for over 25 years and I am not going to go out and buy a new Windows 10 computer so I can prove my point which is the same as the author's point Micah Lee. Professor Mathew Green who is professor of cryptography at Johns Hopkins has grave concerns in storing keys on Microsoft cloud servers, as well as commenters from your Slashdot article. Microsoft is deliberately collecting passwords and recovery keys and storing it on their cloud servers.

How do people in China buy computers at Best Buy? Or does Best buy ship their computers back to china again?
Best Buy operated in China and closed their doors a few years ago. I used it as a name of a big box retailer. Don't get your shorts in a knot over the name.

What do Iphones have to do with Microsoft bitlocker security?
I'm sorry you were unable to follow the narrative. The intelligence community is consistently trying to get back doors into computer systems like Amazon, Apple and Google. Microsoft is no exception.

Why would Microsoft store billions and billions of Encryption keys and why are you the only 'reasearcher' claiming this?
Why does Microsoft store billions of encryption keys on their server? Allegedly when John Dillinger was asked "Why do you rob banks?". He replied, "Because that's where the money is!". John Dillinger in this case is the intelligence community. Why break into billions of separate computers if you can convince people to store their keys and passwords in one central location, like the Microsoft cloud servers? Convince people it is super safe so you can attract as many people as possible. Dillinger is a lot smarter than trying to hold up 1 billion people, one at a time. He goes for the mother load and sticks up the bank that contains billions of passwords. Should that ever happen, do you think Microsoft will tell the public? Yahoo managed to keep the news of their data breach of 500 million accounts a secret for years. Do you think Microsoft is any different? I don't trust Microsoft or any of the other multinational computer corporations. They are in bed with the same people they are supposedly protecting us from. If you don't think there is any pillow talk going on when they exchange a cigarette, then you're pretty naive.

I don't see any point in continuing this conversation. You either see the risk in trusting these billion dollar corporations with your data or you don't.
 

Max Koopman

Member
Licensed User
Longtime User
You state that you haven't read the story I posted yet you feel justified in criticizing it?
Here is what the author Micah Lee stated "ONE OF THE EXCELLENT FEATURES of new Windows devices is that disk encryption is built-in and turned on by default, protecting your data in case your device is lost or stolen. But what is less well-known is that, if you are like most users and login to Windows 10 using your Microsoft account, your computer automatically uploaded a copy of your recovery key — which can be used to unlock your encrypted disk — to Microsoft’s servers, probably without your knowledge and without an option to opt out."

Here is a comment from your trusted site slashdot in which has one poster says:
"For example, as soon as the OS (Win10) was released we see how the OS will send your keystrokes to Microsoft. Not just what you type into Cortana, IE, or Edge but ALL keystrokes are recorded by the OS. You can disable sending the data to Microsoft, but we have yet to find a way of disabling the keylogger built in to the Kernel. (recorded does not necessarily mean stored long term, but long enough to evaluate in memory.)

Due to that lack of trust, I may have installed Win10 but never created a MS or Azure account. Anything I do on the device is treated as public knowledge because the OS is built to remove privacy from end users. I won't use online banking on the PC with Win10, and logging in to anything is assessed under the assumption that someone from MS and the Government will have full access to the account. When I'm working on sensitive stuff I use Linux."

<-- This is from the link you posted! Do you see nothing wrong with Microsoft putting a keylogger into the Windows 10 kernel and then sending the data back to Microsoft? This comment is coming your trusted site, not mine. And you still don't think Microsoft is collecting passwords to access customer data? Do you think Microsoft put in a key logger in Windows 10 because they are running a contest to see who is the world's best typist? [head slap]




Juan Thompson never wrote the article that I posted. What does one have to do with the other? Using your misguided logic I could say the New York Times is all BS because their staff reporter Jayson Blair fabricated stories. So nothing NYT writes is now valid. Is that the extent of your argument? What about Claas Relotius from Der Spiegel who was CNN's international reporter of the year, who fabricated dozens of stories? Using your logic we have to say Der Spiegel & CNN are now totally bogus.



That was the point I was trying to make. The way Windows 10 is installed on the store-bought computers by default sends the BitLocker recovery keys to Microsoft without the user knowing anything about it. I don't know why you can't comprehend that.


Again, you didn't read the article. It concerns store-bought computers. I have been building my own computers for over 25 years and I am not going to go out and buy a new Windows 10 computer so I can prove my point which is the same as the author's point Micah Lee. Professor Mathew Green who is professor of cryptography at Johns Hopkins has grave concerns in storing keys on Microsoft cloud servers, as well as commenters from your Slashdot article. Microsoft is deliberately collecting passwords and recovery keys and storing it on their cloud servers.


Best Buy operated in China and closed their doors a few years ago. I used it as a name of a big box retailer. Don't get your shorts in a knot over the name.


I'm sorry you were unable to follow the narrative. The intelligence community is consistently trying to get back doors into computer systems like Amazon, Apple and Google. Microsoft is no exception.


Why does Microsoft store billions of encryption keys on their server? Allegedly when John Dillinger was asked "Why do you rob banks?". He replied, "Because that's where the money is!". John Dillinger in this case is the intelligence community. Why break into billions of separate computers if you can convince people to store their keys and passwords in one central location, like the Microsoft cloud servers? Convince people it is super safe so you can attract as many people as possible. Dillinger is a lot smarter than trying to hold up 1 billion people, one at a time. He goes for the mother load and sticks up the bank that contains billions of passwords. Should that ever happen, do you think Microsoft will tell the public? Yahoo managed to keep the news of their data breach of 500 million accounts a secret for years. Do you think Microsoft is any different? I don't trust Microsoft or any of the other multinational computer corporations. They are in bed with the same people they are supposedly protecting us from. If you don't think there is any pillow talk going on when they exchange a cigarette, then you're pretty naive.

I don't see any point in continuing this conversation. You either see the risk in trusting these billion dollar corporations with your data or you don't.

Dude, you're making this bigger than it needs to be. Microsoft is simply not sharing your bitlocker keys with any government. That was your claim and you can't proof it at all. All your evidence is one site that is claiming this.

Furthermore, Slashdot has a guy saying that windows is logging their keys. Every forum has an idiot. On this forum,for instance, we have some idiot claiming microsoft is harvesting bitlocker keys.
 

Cableguy

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@Erel, time to close this thread, insults have begun!
 
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