I hope for the change

aklisiewicz

aklisiewicz

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The B4A product seems very interesting and I think it is aiming in the right direction, but,...

what I dislike the most so far is dificulty to learn, find things, etc. No real step by step manual, and no practical examples. This takes for me at least 50% of the product value. The product like this supposed to speed up development time, but ni this case (at least for the beginner) whatever time is saved for development it is the wasted for trying to find thing and figuring out how something works.
This linkg Android Programming Tutorials - Basic4android which should lead to documentation links the page which is more like Q&A but not the real documentation. Ths topics are not in sequence, and they are bery much irrelevant to each other. I know it takes time to create good manual, but without it the chance for a fast user community grow is very weak.
I also haven't found a single video with some presentation...

Obviously forum (in my opinion) is not a good place for documentation. Information is scatered over everywhere and finding things is a horror! The site is very basic and plain, but it is OK, as long as I can find the information I need.

the bottom line: VERY PROMISSING PRODUCT with pood docs!

I HOPE THIS OPINION WILL BE TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION and will result some changes !
 
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Erel

Erel

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myriaddev

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Best product anywhere for Android development!

I have searched hi and low, and have not found anything
like it! Yes, docs could and will be better, BUT the very fast
improvements are almost daily with LOTS and LOTS of code
examples. Download Help Viewer, there you will find the
official growing docs about the Indexed libraries section,
and ideas and problems/solutions from the users/helpers
of the form. The tutorials are great! All are welcome.
 
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J

joedarock

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I feel the need to weigh in on this and defend Erel.

B4A is an exciting new language that has the potential to spur a quantum leap in Android application development. "BASIC" stands for "Beginners All purpose Symbolic Instruction Code", and it certainly is a good language for beginners. However, wrapping it around the Android operating system, with it's object-oriented Java underpinnings, is bound to cause frustration for those not willing to take the time to master the new concepts.

I'm not a professional programmer, but I can say with some confidence that new programming languages almost always require research, learning and discovery before one becomes proficient. I've been developing with Visual Basic (which I consider to be the best rapid development language available) for years, but I still struggle every time I have to use an aspect of the language for the first time. It's the nature of powerful tools - there is almost always a learning curve and it never ends. If you want to be good at it, you have to take the time and effort to read, try, read again, try again, almost ad-nauseum, until you master it.

Erel has done a fantastic job bringing B4A to the point it's at in less than 6 months since the first release. He continues to add new features almost weekly and he's "johnny on the spot" when it comes to fixing bugs or helping us out. Personally, I don't want him to take any time out of his development efforts to write extensive book-like documents. As B4A catches on, others will pick up that mission and I'm sure we'll soon see one or more of those familiar "For Dummies" guides in book stores.

Joe
 
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nfordbscndrd

nfordbscndrd

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joedarock said:
I feel the need to weigh in on this and defend Erel.
...bound to cause frustration for those not willing to take the time to master the new concepts.
...new programming languages almost always require research, learning and discovery before one becomes proficient. I've been developing with Visual Basic
...If you want to be good at it, you have to take the time and effort to read, try, read again, try again, almost ad-nauseum, until you master it.
Click to expand...

First let me say that I don't think that anyone is attacking Erel personally by pointing out that B4A is missing the type of documentation found in any and every other programming language, as well as any other significant application. His rapid response to questions and fixing problems often makes me wonder if he ever sleeps. And given the choice of his having been working on, say, the recent Debugging addition rather than on improving the documentation, I'm very happy to have the Debugger.

However, it's one thing to say that people must be willing to work to master a new programming language and another thing to not provide them with the basic tools for mastering it. The current help system just doesn't work very well, as I pointed out in January in http://www.b4x.com/forum/basic4andr...search-documentation-offline-3.html#post42986 (and many times since).

In that post, I also volunteered to work on a proper documentation system, to which I never got a reply, although one tool that I suggested in that thread, a VB6-to-B4A conversion table, was recently made a Sticky in the Getting Started forum: http://www.b4x.com/forum/basic4andr...orials/9347-converting-vb6-b4a.html#post51712

I was thinking about the documentation problem recently and believe that one way to approach the project so that multiple people could work on it would be to start with a web page which lists the table of contents of the help system, such as this:

B4X: 
 Overview of Basic4Android ("B4A") 
    Installation 
    Integrated Development Environment ("IDE") 
    Layout Designer 
    Android Virtual Device ("AVD") Manager 
    External Libraries 
References 
    Language/Commands 
    Views 
    IDE 
        Overview 
        Tabs Modules 
        Files 
        Logs 
        Libs 
        Menus 
            File 
            Edit 
            Project 
            Tools 
    Designer 
    AVD Manager 
    External Libaries 
etc.

Then a person could pick a topic for which no page has been done, announce his intention to create a page for that topic (to avoid duplication of effort) and create the page. Some of these pages would just be lists of subtopics for which other pages would need to be created.

As people created individual pages (in HTML), the pages could be added to the web site and links would be added to the referring pages. One doesn't have to be an expert in HTML to write a page that is mostly/entirely text; just a few basic commands are needed.

It's debatable whether or not enough people would contribute to such a project to ever see it completed, but the good news for Erel is that anyone who tries and sees how much work it is will at least decide that the existing help system is not that bad after all, plus anyone who questions why there isn't a proper help system could be referred to the project with "there it is; dive in." And who knows, it might actually get done!
 
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joedarock

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nfordbscndrd,

I think your suggestion is a good one. Let's leave the developer(s) to developing new features, libraries, bug fixes & basic documentation, while letting the user community work on a comprehensive manual.

Having said that, I'd be pleased to join this undertaking, but I'm still something of a noob myself. However, I know there must be aspects that I could handle, and having some things written from the viewpoint of a beginner is probably a good thing.

I look forward to contributing to an effort such as this in some way.

Joe
 
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nfordbscndrd

nfordbscndrd

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joedarock said:
...I'm still something of a noob myself.
Click to expand...

Whereas I'm a seasoned veteran of 5 months. :D

The good news is that I think that most of the information needed is already on these forums, it's just a matter of finding it and putting it into a structured Help system.

I've posted a starting Table Of Contents at http://www.aeyec.com/b4a documentation/b4a documentation.htm. Pick a topic (or a topic of your own not listed) and we'll give it a go.
 
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Cableguy

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Let's put this in a new perspective:

I am part of this community for about 5 years now...
At the time I joined, Basic4PPC was just that, for Pocket PC's, and it even needed a "runner" on the device so our code coud run...
Then EREL added the ability to compile and create EXEs...
B4PPc forum was provided by another user, Geotrail...a few months later, EREL gave us our own forum, but always made us feel that we were like at a coffee shop table, discussing our lattest project, and drinking a beer or two...
Now we have this new amazing tool, that just like Bppc, keeps on growing and geting better and more powerfull...
This has always been done and brught to us, in a one on one aproach by EREL...that always tried to be as alert as possible about users troubles, and helping them...
Yes, Documentation is this porduct weakest point, but is almost the single weakness of it...
At this forum, new users, old users, noobs, geeks, experts (real ones, like Agraham and Klaus), we all consider us more like a friend at our coffee table, than a simple user at an online forum...Erel went the extra mile and gathered a small team to help him, and therefore, us, develop his products faster...Some of the improvements even have some of our users code snipets in it...There's no other comunity in the web like this one...
If EREL ever takes the time to really "Professionalize" his product and the way he and his team acts, we all loose...
Yes, B4Android is a very fast way to start developing for the Android, but just like any other app out there, wen something is new for us, we need to learn a bit about it...and no matter how good a manual is, there's always the need to ask some "noob" question, even when you're quoted an expert, like I am, and still do...
I know this was not an "attack" on EREL, but I fear that if taken into consideration, it can have a very significant impact in the comunity...

This is MY perspective..
 
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Erel

Erel

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I actually think that it is a very positive initiative.
My suggestion is to add a community wiki. This will allow users who want to contribute to share their knowledge in addition to the forum.

If there is enough interest I will install a wiki and we will see how it goes.
Two notes:
- You can reuse any existing material in this wiki.
- It will be the community responsibility to keep it updated.
 
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aklisiewicz

aklisiewicz

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I'm glad to hear something like this, and I have also positive feelings about the forum. Erel seems to be very fair in responding to my requests so far, so no complains about that. the only problem is that the information is not well organized. I was just told to d-load PDF manual. fine I got it then at some pint it is talking about the Example App for converting currency. There is not file to download, no link and very little in the manual how the txt file is structured.
Now I have to go on the forum and ask...

I have had situation with some other tool (for android Development). The major complain: it took me about 200 messages in 2-3 months to send to the developer/or tech.supp. to get the information which should be in the resources for the product. Their response time was 24 hrs. So when I was stuck with something and couldn't get an answer I was really pissed off.

I think that WIKI idea is great, and for me as a new user the only problem is that it would probably take few months to get the information organized.
I think in the meantime (or at the same time) it would be good to get program examples organized, so new people can learn from examples.
I also proposed the create HOW TO... list and I have posted my list in some other post on this forum, so it would be good to have this to start with....

The argument about learning curve etc. has no point here because it is related to the business part of the product. No documentation,. no good support = less users, or slow users grow, and in turn Product dying after some time, or being bitten by the competition. Believe me, I'm on this field for 25 years and have seen many product died this way (even some products that I've used in the past). B4A seems to be really great, but keep in mind that mobile development is on the raise and so companies building tools (MobiOne, WinDevMobile, NSBasic, PhoneGap, Air, ...and the list goes on and on). Obviously those who deliver overall better experience will win (no those who have excellent product but provide rather poor resources).

I wish this product and initiative succeed, and keep my fingers crossed, as B4A seems to be a good product for the money. I used the word "seems" because I have had not enough experience and I also come from another 4GL product sector where (perhaps) I got a little spoiled by the way I was doing things in the past to deliver working Apps to the customer.
 
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