Should I argue with him?

Should I argue with him?


  • Total voters
    16

William Lancee

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APL was my second language, a long time ago (working on a MCM700 - see last picture). I am now working on a personal project to implement it on an Android Tablet.
Why? Because I can. With the help of B4X and B4XTable and TextEngine and XChart and all kinds of other B4X goodies. Here are some snapshots. They are from my desktop B4J. The cross-platform features let me develop on B4J and run it with B4A on my 10inch Samsung.

It is just a hobby, and I am far from done. APL1.PNGAPL2.PNGAPL3.PNGmcm700.jpg
 

William Lancee

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Rather than arguing, I find it usually best to brainstorm together about pros and cons of various approaches, letting the other person take the lead. After that, the customer is always right. If you can't live with that than you have to accept that you have lost at least one opportunity with that customer. Which, in the end, may be best for you too.

Also, remember there are many different ways to achieve a goal. Even with the same tools, I often re-design and rewrite and re-create to make a better product.

The only two languages I personally found ill-suited for most tasks were LISP and wait for it ... COBOL.
 

aeric

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Just for an update. I feel uncomfortable working for him. Actually I haven’t started but I foresee there will be much argument in the future. So I told him I can’t help him.
My thought of doing a freelance doesn’t mean we have to do something for free (as beer in open source definition) or get paid at very low charge. We should know our experience is very precious. We worth certain value. The most important thing for me is free as in “freedom” of time. If the client provides me a full system source code and expect me to understand it so I can fix something within half or 1 hour, honestly I give up. He tried to compare me with his previous developer who can provide the solution in a short time. And then what he can offer is too low for me. A brand new plugin for less than US$100. I have seen a previous plugin which has around 2000 lines of code. Lastly, the way he talks made me feel he doesn’t have respect to me.
 
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Cadenzo

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I think (and hope!) B4X is one of the future safest ways for coding as it precompiles for every platform in the prefered language before compiling this. So if, let's say google decides to accept only kotlin, no more java for android development, so Erel takes three free days to create the kotlin-precompiler and we have nothing to do ;-)
 

tchart

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Just for an update. I feel uncomfortable working for him. Actually I haven’t started but I foresee there will be much argument in the future. So I told him I can’t help him.
My thought of doing a freelance doesn’t mean we have to do something for free (as beer in open source definition) or get paid at very low charge. We should know our experience is very precious. We worth certain value. The most important thing for me is free as in “freedom” of time. If the client provides me a full system source code and expect me to understand it so I can fix something within half or 1 hour, honestly I give up. He tried to compare me with his previous developer who can provide the solution in a short time. And then what he can offer is too low for me. A brand new plugin for less than US$100. I have seen a previous plugin which has around 2000 lines of code. Lastly, the way he talks made me feel he doesn’t have respect to me.

@aeric wow, I would run a mile. Like I said in that other thread, some people are just difficult and if its already like that then imagine what it will be like working for/with him. I've had developer friends who have worked for people like this. They are the kind of people/clients/customers who will have endless changes they expect for free, not pay on time or just not pay at all. If he is such a genius then he can probably do it himself - but likley he cant because hes only ever learnt one language/toolset.

As others have said the most important trait of a developer is flexibility. Knowing how to code is more important that the tools. I know VB6, VB.Net, C#, C++, Java, Python, PowerShell, JavaScript and of course B4X. I choose the right tool for the job.

When I first started Android development (10 years ago) using Eclipse it was horrible. The other day my son asked for help compiling a BuildBox project (a cross platform game making IDE) that uses Android Studio to compile for Android. It was a terrible experience. So even though Google throw so much money Android Studio at it doesnt make it any better than 10 years ago. However I know that I can install B4A on a brand new machine and have a compiled APK in a very short amount of time.

Another war story: I once worked on an iOS project for a client. The iOS development was outsourced to an app development company. The development literally costs tens of thousands of dollars. Soon after the project the app development company said they didnt want to work on the project anymore and wanted to focus on games. So we asked for the source code. The code we got back was terrible quality - and this was a professional development company. It was so bad it was binned and replaced with an off the shelf solution. One of the first apps I wrote in B4A was on the Play store for 8 years with no recompiling or updates required. It just worked. It was only recently taken off the store by Google becuase I hadnt updated the permissions required (it was an automation app that read commands from SMS messages - which require new permissions nowadays). So just because someone is using the best tools or a professional app company doesnt guarentee the best outcome.
 
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tchart

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A brand new plugin for less than US$100.

Theres a Australian movie called "The Castle" (your should watch it if you have the opportunity) that has a famous quote when one of the characters is trying to agree on a price of something over the phone. It goes likle this;

Tell 'em they're dreamin'

Moral of the story is that people will always trying negotiate a better deal/price in their favour. The best way to argue this is to ask him whether he would do it for $100. The answer would be a definite "no". Would he or you do it for $1000? Probably not, because lets say you sunk 50-100 hours into this project then thats $10-20 per hour. You can get paid better working at literally anywhere else. I dont know what country you live but developers tend to be better paid than that.

Also, in these kinds of situations you need to ask why did the other developer leave? I'd also ask for his contact details and email him with some questions. Its always a good idea (even when applying for a job) to ask how long the previous person was there, why did they leave etc. Usually people dont leave if its a good position, good pay etc
 

emexes

Expert
Licensed User
ask why did the other developer leave? I'd also ask for his contact details
I doubt you'll get a straight answer to "why did the other developer leave" but it'd sure be interesting to get their viewpoint. 🥳

Probably better to say that: in order to do the plugin for $100, you'll need to clarify with the previous developer which parts of it are already working.

Feel free to update us with their response. 🍻
 

tchart

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Longtime User
I doubt you'll get a straight answer to "why did the other developer leave" but it'd sure be interesting to get their viewpoint. 🥳

Probably better to say that: in order to do the plugin for $100, you'll need to clarify with the previous developer which parts of it are already working.

Feel free to update us with their response. 🍻

Well that's the trick with this line of questioning. If they departed on good terms then they will say so and be happy for you to contact them. If they are cagey/defensive about it or wont share contact details then there is probably an issue and that would be a big red flag. Never be scared to ask these questions as it will save you in the long run.

Also @aeric consider this, if you are working for free/low pay then you are probably better off working on your own skills & products. It doesnt cost you anything but your free time and you can do it when you want. However if you are working on someone elses product for free/low pay there is no advantage for you as you are losing valuable time.

Sometimes another way to approach this is if the customer doesnt have money to pay then you can ask for shares or royalties from app sales. I have a friend who did this. He sunk months of his time into building an app in exchange for company shares. His shares are now worth several hundred thousand dollars.
 

aeric

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End of the day, it is my heart and guts told me it is not worth to proceed. Even he can offer me a share, from what I can see how much he can offer, I won’t expect the share is much to consider. Furthermore it is the communication and understanding that make me decide that it is a no go for a long term cooperation.
 
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