just for discussion: Why B4X is not famous enough

imbault

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Well, B4X isn't a language name, it's just an acronym. And it's very right that "BASIC" has now a very bad reputation, super has been.

Today, an IDE with a modern language can't be called Basic or B4X, it's just a question of marketing and common sense.

As today's digital strategy, the cloud are purely marketing terms that are on the rise, Python, has an interesting name that strikes the mind and makes you want to take a closer look, or even get started, like C# or others...

We need to think a bit and find a stage name that reflects the modernity, power, performance, flexibility and ubiquity that are the strength of B4X and no longer refer to BASIC at all.

A new name, a sexy name for a sexy IDE and a sexy language shouldn't be too complex to find...


You'll see, in a while Erel will add a new keyword other than Dim which may be one of the very few terms too BASIC oriented (obviously, Dim will continue to exist) .... another story

Patrick
 
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rabbitBUSH

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Looks like this has become a circular discussion. A range of opinions. BASIC is just a legacy from 2007, branding often lives with this and it can be sticky stuff. Datsun vs Nissan. Panasonic only rebranded in about 2008 or so {what was it before Again?}.

It's a process. The less one uses the word basic in relation, the greater the attrition rate on the perception.

Was it not just last year B4X rebranded? Still a distance to walk then.

HECK.... How did we get here from #1? Luckily through the engagement and support of forum members and the ownership of B4X as a tool. Which it is.
 

AnandGupta

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The real challenge is how to increase the exposure of new developers to B4X. I need your help here. If you like B4X encourage other developers to give it a try.
I have some plan, and hope it may help making Android programmers take a look at B4A.

Regards,

Anand
 

cd1001

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Here are my 2 cents:

1. Write full courses on programming for High-Schools. Give teachers a syllabus and teaching-material into their hands. A lot of the Informatics Teachers are more comfortable with Basic than with any other language.

2. Write full courses on programming for the Departments of Business Administration at universities. Give teachers a syllabus and teaching-material into their hands. You won't break into the Informatics-Departments, but for Business Majors, who are often familiar with VBA, B4X could be their path to become a Citizen Developer. And that could open the door to the corporate world, which could gain momentum on its own.

3. Smooth the entrance for Citizen Developers. Current MS-Access-Developers are a huge source of potential users. At the moment, the learning-curve is too steep for them. Built Boilerplates for typical corporate applications. Reach them on their forums with tutorials about how to bring their database into the web. Show them their way out of abandonment by Microsoft.

4. Compare, Compare, Compare. What’s the USP of B4X and how does this relate to IONIC, Flutter, Xamarin,…? Place articles about it. Propose your argumentation to influencers like this guy. Make alleged weaknesses look like strengths: strong typing, composition over inheritance, no brackets…. And do it outside of the forum.
 

LucaMs

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I was leafing through an Android-Java tutorial in Italian. In this I found some links related to cross-platform development tools (Android-iOS) and I wanted to look at which were the most known and used.

After that I came to a video tutorial on Youtube about one of these. Here's how to "quickly and easily" create what is an EditText for us (here TextFormField):
1583676016668.png


and what for us is a (not very useful, we have the more powerful xCustomListView) ListView:
1583676059488.png


From this we can understand how these "RAD" tools are: to develop a classic "Hello world", a month of work will be enough 😂
 

lucas555

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Just a thought …
I'm an old programmer 57 , been programming my old life , i started in assembler , pascal Cobol
Basic , c plus plus and lately in JScript for web apps in b4J :) .
When many years ago i started with Erel in Basic4PPC i was one of the first to try b4a v0.00001 lol
Like i said earlier i did c plus plus and so on but dam the speed it toke me in B4X to redo my old pos systems
the back office and the station software in 6 month a miracle , try to do that in c plus plus , I've been a fan since
Yes there is a lot and i mean a lot of programming language but the fastest one no doubt is B4X ,for instance we build
a lot of electronic interface for Arduino and raspberry pi , try to do that with c3builder of c sharp . And we share code between platform and this is the big difference you can REALLY share code !

Again this is my opinion , but like i always say : EREL IS THE BEST AND ... WELL YOU KNOW
 

Devv

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I believe that there is couple of reasons b4a is not So popular

1- it only works on windows
2- it does not have enough marketing/ tutorials
3- any well spread project will need a team behind it for development, forums and marketing. Not a god of a project who decides everything from one point of view.

Plus I don't think adding another language is easy, I believe it would cuse so much problems when sharing code, debugging, ...
 

lucas555

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Your right , for sharing between programmer but we are working on an inside project to monitor change done to any file in a particular project so a full team can work on a big project , again a work in progress

And as a good exemple we just hire a young programmer wiz and it took im only 3 month to forget all is other language and praise B4X ( well im the Owner he add no choice lol) any way just to say it is very easy to understand compare to other language,
 

Bruce Axtens

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Sadly we find ourselves with folk hating on BASIC the way they hate on COBOL. There is a word for those who have an obsession with "new" things even when new is not necessarily better. A list of manias has cainomania, cainotomania and centomania. For more symptoms, see here. It's the same mindset that has folk lining up for the latest Apple iPhone for no good reason other than that it is the new phone. "It's new, man! It's got to be better."

Same thing goes with programming languages. Who cares about the multiple millions of lines of COBOL running on assorted mainframes around the world? Who cares that the expertise to work with the language is dying out? Somewhere out there someone came up with the lie that BASIC is bad. So many have repeated it that it's now really hard to convince people of the truth, that BASIC is good. Good for some things and not for others, the way other languages are also good for some things and not for others.
 

vecino

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I think it's just a question of marketing, it would be a great product to know and everyone would fight to learn and use it, if microsoft, google, apple... had created it.
They would sell it indicating that it is the fastest, most agile, comfortable, simple, transportable, with a known and clean syntax, that creates light and fast executables.
I have been working professionally since 1984 and have passed through many different languages: basic, pascal, cobol, assembler, dbase/clipper, boriar, C, pascal/delphi, etc. and when I went to develop the first project for android (2012), I was investigating very thoroughly what there was, and everything seemed to me inadequate, some for being insufficient, others for being slow, others for being incomplete, and I arrived by chance at B4A and it seemed so simple, so easy, so clear, that my first impression was that it was an "attempt to do something different, and that I would have few possibilities", but I discovered that "underneath, in the bowels" was a very well thought out system, that separated very well the syntax used in the IDE with the code "converted" underneath, it seemed to me that it was flying a rocket with a joystick, that is, a great system "underneath", but that "overneath" is so logical, simple, plain, that at first glance it is deceptive, it seems little, but it is really a great product made easy.
Well, to sum up, marketing and a famous name behind it.
Greetings.
 

sorex

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if it is really that bad why is almost everything written in it (php) ? :)

there are always people who complain.
 

Winni

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I'm thinking about this a lot. How to make B4X more popular? What are the barriers who prevent B4X from growing?
Making B4A free removes one barrier and I'm sure that in the long run it will have a positive effect. Making the core libraries open source will also help.

About BASIC. There isn't too much to say here. The programming language is B4X. For better or for worse its syntax is close to BASIC and it will not be changed.

The real challenge is how to increase the exposure of new developers to B4X. I need your help here. If you like B4X encourage other developers to give it a try.
There is a large and active community here and this community is the key for further growth.

Just a few points that I can think of right away:

-- The IDE is not multi-platform. Most developers these days no longer WANT to use Windows, they prefer macOS or Linux. Being Windows-only in this time and age is a huge problem that's holding the product back.

-- Students learn JavaScript, Java, C++, C# and maybe Python in school. The people that are still interested in a modern BASIC dialect are around my age (50) who have grown up with BASIC, are comfortable with it and find it efficient for application development. We were born in a time when BASIC was as ubiquitous as Python is today. But BASIC, just like the back then extremely popular Pascal, fell into niche status, marked for extinction.

-- This leads to the big question: How do you attract YOUNG developers that only learn other programming languages at school or on the Internet?

-- And WHY should they even bother learning a niche language like B4X when Kotlin and Java are the officially supported languages for Android, Swift is the officially supported language for macOS and iOS, JavaScript runs in every browser and every web page uses it and Java and Kotlin run even in a coffee machine. But MOST IMPORTANTLY - EVERYBODY uses JavaScript and Java. That doesn't make those two languages good or even better programming languages, but it makes them dialects of the English language of computing. Python follows closely behind, and then comes good old C (not C++).

-- So in today's job market, JavaScript, Java, Python and a member of the C-dialect are what you need to land a good job, and you're learning all of those at school. And that is more than enough to learn when you're at the beginning of your career. There simply is no space - or need - to learn a niche programming language that is not called Go or Rust. It's a very tough sale.

-- Then there is the question of available literature, books, web pages and the state of the documentation, that in many cases just consists of a brief list of method declarations. There is no proper or thorough reference documentation, there is not enough training material and if you want to find a proper training course for it online, forget about it. B4X would need books in the league of "Python Crash Course by E.H. Matthes", "Python in a nutshell by Alex Martelli", "Programming Python by Mark Lutz" or the legendary "The C Programming Language by Brian Kernighan" and, of course, something like "Android Studio Development Essentials by Neil Smyth" and at least one "Head First B4X" book, preferably written by a teacher that is as good as Kathy Sierra or E.H. Matthes or Charles Petzold or Mark Lutz -- these people produce labors of love, their works are not just excellent books.

-- There still is no famous or widely known killer application out there that has been written in B4X.

-- Not even the B4X IDEs are written in B4X! That was the reason why some people back in the day took it on themselvers to write the SharpDevelop IDE in C#, to prove that a complex application could be written in that new programming language. In comparison, the BlitzMax IDE was written in BlitzMax.

---- BlitzMax was abandoned by the original developer a few years ago and went full open source and is still maintained by some loyal fans -- it's an AMAZING multi-platform, object-oriented BASIC dialect that produces native code for each support target operating system. But it suffers from the same issues B4X suffers from, and I remember the exact same discussions on the BlitzMax forums over a decade ago. That being said, when I worked for Alaska Software back at the end of the 1990s and the early 2000s, our programming language called Xbase++, which was a modern version of Clipper, suffered from those very same issues as well and the users were having the same discussions. Xbase++ is still on the market, but it's still a very small niche language with a following that on average has reached the retirement age by now, despite being an extremely powerful and highly productive programming language, Xbase++ never managed to attract young or new users.

-- Just think for a second about making COBOL attractive to a new generation of software developers. I rest my case.

-- It took Python almost 30 years to get where it is today - and the major incompatibility of version 2 and version 3 of that language almost killed it (like PERL is now dead not only because of Python, but because the successor of Perl 5 became a completely new programming language). In recent years, Python became so big because SCIENTISTS widely adopted it, mainly in bio-informatics or for machine learning. And A LOT of authors wrote books about it to teach kids how to use it. Why? Because Python is today what BASIC was back in the 1970s/1980s: An easy language to learn that does it ALL ("batteries included"), and it is available on ALL computing platforms - free of charge. Heck, there are even ready made modules available that can communicate to the plant sensors that we use in the greenhouses of our research institute. The Python ecosystem just kills it - there really is a module for EVERYTHING. It's near to impossible to compete with such a vast ecosystem of FREE third party libraries.

So this is all rather depressing right now. My love for niche programming language has led me down similar roads before, but I've also learned that I'm not alone in my love for BASIC dialects. There have always been plenty of others, and they were all looking for a safe haven. This simply means that there IS a market.

But here is one more huge problem: I have absolutely no clue how Anywhere Software plans on monetizing a free ("as in beer") development product. Truth be told, the fact that B4A is now available free of charge is nice, but seeing that it is being developed by an army-of-one, Erel, is actually a major issue of concern. If I were a commercial software developer, it would be extremely unwise to bet my existence on a product that could go out of business over night. Open Sourcing B4X would not really help, because there won't be enough public interest to keep the product alive. The BlitzMax disaster has shown me that people will just move on over time - and BlitzMax had a big community in the game development scene. (But the developer offered a new product and new - incompatible - language at the time, so people moving on was to be expected.)

I doubt, though, that open sourcing B4X could even be a legally feasible option at this point; there are probably several third party libraries used in the product whose licenses would make such a step impossible. Also, I don't actually think that "free as in speech" would actually help at this point.

Making B4X more popular would require:
-- MARKETING and LOBBYING, and LOTS of it
-- A very visible success story!
-- Proper documentation as in MANY third party books, training offerings and developer conferences
-- A multi-platform IDE (written in the language itself to showcase its power)

It's not a technological problem. But someone needs to throw money at these problems, and how do you get that money back when you offer a free product???
 

Polaris

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I suppose the word 'basic' tends to put some developers off, for me it was the opposite . I was struggling with Java and Android Studio, and one day i come across this code on GitHub and the author said it was written in Basic for Android , And I was like " What ? you can code an Android App in Basic? , since I knew BASIC this really appealed to me,,
so i looked it up immediately. Of course it wasn't really basic but looking at the structure of some sample code, I liked the way it was divided into simple sub routines with straightforward syntax , and when i figured out that it was quite powerful i dove straight into it . Funny thing is i spent a lot of time googling for an alternative to Android Studio, and never found anything , it was a fluke encounter on GitHub . So maybe B4A should be marketed as what it was for me :

------An easy to learn, yet powerful, alternative to Android Studio----
 
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