There's been a lot of talking about taking B4X to "the next level"...

Magma

Expert
Licensed User
Longtime User
I consent in every aspect of this post. IMHO the biggest selling point for B4X is: Simple Apps could be done by everybody. And then there is a lot room for growing in the ecosphere of the IDE. But who is in need for simple apps? No, the answer is not "App-Developers" and programmers. The target group are people who have a daily job to do and who want to smoothen out their daily tasks. This is a market that is at the moment driven by MS-Office products. And this is the opportunity for B4X to sneak its way into corporate environments. There is the momentum and there is the chance to become indispensible. But fullfills the current ecosystem of B4X the needs of those non-programmer people in the coporate world? I'm afraid not. They need tutorials about setting up a simple database in a language that suits them. They need the confidence, that there is a safe way to bring their apps onto the web and they want to know exactly why is B4X the better option to do that in comparison to that regarding JS-Solution which is fully and understandable explained on youtube. Those guys dont want to see fancy experimental things which could be done with B4X. They want to see, how it could be done simple, right and stable. Who is to blame for the lack of target-audience related content on this forum and social media? Erel is not. He is the greatest programmer on earth but has never worked in coprorate environments. He couldn't help even if he wants to. Could this community do this? Could Erel sponsor some tutorials? Is it possible to win over some MS-Access Guys to show the world how B4X could be a successor for their tool? I don't have the answers but I'm quite sure, that my suggested direction is the way to go. For my part, I'm quite good in VBA, but i have never managed to do some really meaningfull in B4X. The curve is still too steep for me. Maybe I'm not alone.

Other houghts: Almost never starts a corporate project with a mobile app. This is one of the last phases a business-application is passing. And for those guys mentioned above its hard to install their self made tool on prem at their workplace. If they want to have their processes more automated, they must do it in some form of webapp. And this must be the direction for B4X in the future to stay alive.
First of all... b4x is not a database builder and not a spreadsheet creator... is a programming language...
can manage databases ? yes ofcourse...
can manage spreadsheets ? yes, why not...

VBA... is a script language that remembers vb6... is not the same... is used by those apps (ms access, foxpro, excel workbooks... etc)

any programming language need a lot of reading, searching.... the good here is that B4X code it looks like vb6... or general basic...

The are "code" generators... or libraries can help you (a little search will give you the picture)... but there are no magic wands... (but) may be some day a solution that fits you will come in front of your eyes...
 

cd1001

Member
Licensed User
Longtime User
First of all... b4x is not a database builder and not a spreadsheet creator... is a programming language...
can manage databases ? yes ofcourse...
can manage spreadsheets ? yes, why not...

VBA... is a script language that remembers vb6... is not the same... is used by those apps (ms access, foxpro, excel workbooks... etc)

any programming language need a lot of reading, searching.... the good here is that B4X code it looks like vb6... or general basic...

The are "code" generators... or libraries can help you (a little search will give you the picture)... but there are no magic wands... (but) may be some day a solution that fits you will come in front of your eyes...
Ok. Essentially you are saying, B4X won't address my needs because its not suitable and the audience is not worth the effort. So what is the better target-group marketing wise and why is this?
 

Magma

Expert
Licensed User
Longtime User
Ok. Essentially you are saying, B4X won't address my needs because its not suitable and the audience is not worth the effort. So what is the better target-group marketing wise and why is this?
I didn't say that... i ve said that may be need "work-from-your-side" or "buy-a-solution" or "search-the-forum" for ideas...

I am not talking for target-groups...

I am saying b4x is targetting at developers general... from A to Z.. but not ready to use solutions, that comes with language, with one click, or 10-steps...
 

cd1001

Member
Licensed User
Longtime User
I didn't say that... i ve said that may be need "work-from-your-side" or "buy-a-solution" or "search-the-forum" for ideas...

I am not talking for target-groups...

I am saying b4x is targetting at developers general... from A to Z.. but not ready to use solutions, that comes with language, with one click, or 10-steps...
Ok. Think about this: In terms of marketing you claim: Our product is superior to the competitors with all the bells and whistles which are caring about the circumstance, that your are not the smartest guy on the planet. Because we are superior you has to be superior too. Does that make sense? I don't think so. There was no lack of effort on my part by the way
..
 

cd1001

Member
Licensed User
Longtime User
Ok. Think about this: In terms of marketing you claim: Our product is superior to the competitors with all the bells and whistles which are caring about the circumstance, that your are not the smartest guy on the planet. Because we are superior you has to be superior too. Does that make sense? I don't think so. There was no lack of effort on my part by the way
..
Sorry, didn't noticed the bolding was on.
 

Magma

Expert
Licensed User
Longtime User
Well I think... that this you want, may be is a wish, so you can make your wish... at the right section of forum....

But think about it... someone would like B4X to use LISP (cad language) to make for example autocad easier for topo, landscapes...

or someone else need a special-surgery-laser-machine programming, need the right developer, specialist for it or need his solution (or parts of it)
 
Last edited:

Magma

Expert
Licensed User
Longtime User
by the way... did you check?
 

cd1001

Member
Licensed User
Longtime User
but...

As a developer... i would say "yes" is possible to create solutions, like you want.. if our world need it...
That's my central claim: This is what's the world needs, everyday and everywhere. Of course I could be wrong. But why is powerapps getting traction, or OpenXava or all the low-coding stuff? Because bread-and butter stuff is a Hugh thing.
 

Magma

Expert
Licensed User
Longtime User
That's my central claim: This is what's the world needs
I think Erel is a man... not a God (hmmm... may be I am wrong) and leave us space to sell our products :)

but if someone see your post or if you think it a lot and try it... alone... you may be make a lot of money... or may be not.... if create the right apps needed... give it a try... forum will help you... but have this as a guide... simple questions.... to take simple answers...
 

cd1001

Member
Licensed User
Longtime User
by the way... did you check?
Done that, been there. I don't want to replicate things. I'm struggling with transferring existing solutions to a new level with B4X. Maybe it's just me.
 

Magma

Expert
Licensed User
Longtime User
Done that, been there. I don't want to replicate things. I'm struggling with transferring existing solutions to a new level with B4X. Maybe it's just me.
sometimes the solution is in front of us.. and at a "point" you think can't pass... someone can help... but in a developer's forum you need to have patience... you can't ask from a "man" do it all... even a God must see you trying and then help you...
 

William Lancee

Well-Known Member
Licensed User
Longtime User
To quote a teacher from my past:

Success requires three things:
1. A great idea as a solution to a known or unknown problem
2. Someone to implement it
3. Someone to bring it to market

And if you have a great #2 and a great #3, you can always hire people to do #1 :)

I see programming languages and computers as tools used by implementers.

How does one market a specific tool?
If you're big tool makers like DeWalt or Lee Valley, you identify different categories of tool users.
Then you go where they are hanging out (the two mentioned above go to hardware stores and trade shows) and
give users demonstrations of what can be done faster and better with their tools.

If you are an implementer (paid or unpaid), your success depends on your skill in selecting and using your tools.
Your customers (paying or not) only see your final product, and if they are satisfied, your work is successful.

BUT, when customers don't know or worry about "your skill in selecting and using your tools", then
they will use proxies for real knowledge:
1. How many people work for you?
2. How long have you been doing this?
3. Do you have any samples to show?
4. How big is your workshop?
5. Where is it located?
6. What is your training?
7. Have you had satisfied/dissatisfied customers?
8. Have they heard of some of the tools you will you use?

Am I skilled in selecting and using my software tools?
When in doubt, I know where to look. When in uncharted territory, I experiment.

I have a small but well-stocked workshop, but I regularly search for new improved tools.
B4X as a language is to easy to extend with classes, templates, and B4XLibs.
When all else fails, it is easy to make a custom code generator that puts prepared code on the Logs.

Implementers need tools, but also skill enhancement and techniques that can be acquired from other implementers.
I am continuously learning new things from the Forum. That's why follow it closely.
 

cd1001

Member
Licensed User
Longtime User
To quote a teacher from my past:

Success requires three things:
1. A great idea as a solution to a known or unknown problem
2. Someone to implement it
3. Someone to bring it to market

And if you have a great #2 and a great #3, you can always hire people to do #1 :)

I see programming languages and computers as tools used by implementers.

How does one market a specific tool?
If you're big tool makers like DeWalt or Lee Valley, you identify different categories of tool users.
Then you go where they are hanging out (the two mentioned above go to hardware stores and trade shows) and
give users demonstrations of what can be done faster and better with their tools.

If you are an implementer (paid or unpaid), your success depends on your skill in selecting and using your tools.
Your customers (paying or not) only see your final product, and if they are satisfied, your work is successful.

BUT, when customers don't know or worry about "your skill in selecting and using your tools", then
they will use proxies for real knowledge:
1. How many people work for you?
2. How long have you been doing this?
3. Do you have any samples to show?
4. How big is your workshop?
5. Where is it located?
6. What is your training?
7. Have you had satisfied/dissatisfied customers?
8. Have they heard of some of the tools you will you use?

Am I skilled in selecting and using my software tools?
When in doubt, I know where to look. When in uncharted territory, I experiment.

I have a small but well-stocked workshop, but I regularly search for new improved tools.
B4X as a language is to easy to extend with classes, templates, and B4XLibs.
When all else fails, it is easy to make a custom code generator that puts prepared code on the Logs.

Implementers need tools, but also skill enhancement and techniques that can be acquired from other implementers.
I am continuously learning new things from the Forum. That's why follow it closely.
I really like your approach. But could you elaborate, how it helps to promote B4X one someone's consideration list?
 

William Lancee

Well-Known Member
Licensed User
Longtime User
If you are asking "How do I sell my skills?", then the list from 1 to 7 in post #74 is a good start.

But another consideration is what the customers expects and needs (not always the same).
If the customer wants a C++ program (possibly for good reasons), then if you can, provide that.

If like me, you can code in C++, but think you can do it a lot faster in B4X, then offer the C++ product anyway.
Create a exceptional prototype in B4X in record time - since B4X is the your RAD tool of choice. Show the customer the B4X prototype.
Find out if they still want it in C++. Changes are they like the time frame and the quality of what you have more than C++.

Give them what they want. I have developed apps in B4X and converted them to VB. It will be possible to do with C++.
You can always ask someone from the Forum to help with that (paid or unpaid).

Your ultimate product is the result of your skill in selecting and using your tools.
That skill is your strength and if it is broadly based and continuously honed, your chances are as good as can be.

That's not to say that to be "on someone's consideration list?" is solely on merit, and if the customer is biased, then
it is outside your control. Biases can be anything. A bias against B4X itself, everything else being equal, is not going to
be easily balanced by marketing techniques - in my opinion.
 

cd1001

Member
Licensed User
Longtime User
If you are asking "How do I sell my skills?", then the list from 1 to 7 in post #74 is a good start.

But another consideration is what the customers expects and needs (not always the same).
If the customer wants a C++ program (possibly for good reasons), then if you can, provide that.

If like me, you can code in C++, but think you can do it a lot faster in B4X, then offer the C++ product anyway.
Create a exceptional prototype in B4X in record time - since B4X is the your RAD tool of choice. Show the customer the B4X prototype.
Find out if they still want it in C++. Changes are they like the time frame and the quality of what you have more than C++.

Give them what they want. I have developed apps in B4X and converted them to VB. It will be possible to do with C++.
You can always ask someone from the Forum to help with that (paid or unpaid).

Your ultimate product is the result of your skill in selecting and using your tools.
That skill is your strength and if it is broadly based and continuously honed, your chances are as good as can be.

That's not to say that to be "on someone's consideration list?" is solely on merit, and if the customer is biased, then
it is outside your control. Biases can be anything. A bias against B4X itself, everything else being equal, is not going to
be easily balanced by mar

keting techniques - in my opinion.
 

cd1001

Member
Licensed User
Longtime User
I'm a bit confuses here. You are talking about yourself. What's the link to the thread-question: How could B4x gain attention? I don't see the point in your elaboration.
 

Cableguy

Expert
Licensed User
Longtime User
I'm a bit confuses here. You are talking about yourself. What's the link to the thread-question: How could B4x gain attention? I don't see the point in your elaboration.
Topics like these will always end up with people using their own experience or path to explain how they managed to be successful with a non-main-stream programing language. Also, some will always compare it with other more.... successful... languages... and even with "dialects" like VBA...
Yes, for me VBA is a dialect, used in the "micro-hard" region... that somewhat related to VBasic, which IS a language on its own.
Every point of view is valid, even if not correct, as long as it is polite, un-targeting and not offensive to others.
This tread serves NOT to find the ultimate business strategy to bring B4X to the major league... but to exchange ideas of how we, individually, can contribute to it. Just like supporters do to a football team, defending their team in (peaceful) discussions.
 

William Lancee

Well-Known Member
Licensed User
Longtime User
I really like your approach. But could you elaborate, how it helps to promote B4X one someone's consideration list?
I assumed (wrongly) that you meant "how do does it help B4X developers to be considered by a client?"
Now I see that you meant "how do does it help B4X to be considered by a developers as a RAD?"

It was an easy assumption, since it is obvious to me why developers would want to use B4X, but are hesitant because of the
low profile in the eyes of clients. In any case, you assumed (wrongly) that I was talking about myself. ;)
 
Top