COLLABORATION OR ONE MAN BAND ?

Intelemarketing

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UDG raised an interesting subject this week regarding supporting customers in a particular region of Switzerland. This is a continuation of the same thought.

There is a problem with being a "brilliant, productive, software developer", operating as a "one man band". I, like many others, have operated in this manner for more than 25 years, and now face the problem that my customers, although very happy with my products, are concerned about on-going support. What happens if you have an accident? What happens if you die? etc etc. This problem needs a solution.
I have thought long and hard about this, and conclude that the answer cannot be as simple as "go get some staff". (Where do you find staff with the brilliance and imagination that you possessed in creating your masterpieces?). And how can you even employ another person when you can hardly financially support yourself and family? And, am I willing to share my special ideas with strangers ?
The idea that UDG raises, goes towards solving the problem, by creating a conglomerate of like minded people, who can support each other. How each person is rewarded for their input, I am not so sure of, but somewhere in this concept, there has to be an answer. There needs to be continuation of support for much wonderful software developed out there, so that it continues to "live", even if the original author has decided (or been forced) to give it all up. I, personally am actually at the threshold of seeking similar collaboration, with some of my own projects, which have been developed in VB6.
A bonus to creating a collaboration for support, may be that the software may find new markets, which in turn will provide new income streams.

There is one way that removes a lot of questions. Create software which is sold via a website only, with support via email or internet chat only. My mobile telephone supplier operates like that (Circles.Life Australia) - You cannot physically speak to anyone directly, other than by internet chat. There is actually NO PHONE NUMBER. How many people in that company ? No one knows. BUT, if you create a wonderful website, you can present yourself as large, successful company, while in the background its is only you and your cat ! (Obviously your software needs to be A Grade and provides exactly what it says it does).

I am interested to hear what other programmers, facing a similar dilemma, see as a solution to this problem that faces many, many of us.
 

LucaMs

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What happens if you have an accident? What happens if you die?
Your customers will send you flowers 😄


(Where do you find staff with the brilliance and imagination that you possessed in creating your masterpieces?)
Everywhere; myriads of developers are better than me 😄
(obviously I'm joking and pretending modesty; actually no one is on my level... in my house, where I live alone 😄)


You cannot physically speak to anyone directly, other than by internet chat. There is actually NO PHONE NUMBER. How many people in that company ? No one knows
This is particularly hateful. Even the big Google, despite having thousands of employees, often uses softwares to answer you.


Having many years of experience, you know that there are many software products that no longer exist and this is certainly not due to problems/decisions of individual developers; software produced by giant software houses (this is to say that nothing is certain in life).
I think you should convert your VB6 SWs (this is one of the dead or dying products for many years) to more modern languages/tools and, on the verge of death 😄, hand over the sources to someone.

Alternatively, look with a lantern for a partner who you think is brilliant and whom you trust.


(This morning I'm particularly cynical and I have very little time).
 
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Magma

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Sorry for "Haha".. but LucaMs you have a lot of humor...

@Intelemarketing ...So you suggest to create a fake "vitrine" of our self... a half-fake... not giving info for our person, our one-man-show company or how persons there are into it... hmmmm.. It will work sometimes... but sometimes you will have a giant wall... I am talking from my side because i already own a small company and working like that and better (i think)... is actually a two person company with a telephone center, shared works... but when a big project comes... we expose our selfs and the man-power we have..

Many times here in forums I ve said this problem ---> if i die, if had an accident... well life is short... live it... sell "yourself" (as udg said) but sell with limits (say this is me... nothing less... nothing more) - if you have a product could do the job (someone will buy)... if not (let him go everywhere he wants... unless you want to be unhappy with you)...

I have real examples also created custom big projects for years... and clients got a ready solution for one different feature needed.. so you must know that the customer isn't thinking you... thinks only his pocket, his work.

I think that the best way... yes.. create custom project... and if you feel unsafe for yourself... share it or sell it at a programmer in a good price, deal with him for the clients (if you have an accident)... or better make it Opensource from the start and just sell service...
 
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Andrew (Digitwell)

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UDG raised an interesting subject this week regarding supporting customers in a particular region of Switzerland. This is a continuation of the same thought.

The idea that UDG raises, goes towards solving the problem, by creating a conglomerate of like minded people, who can support each other. How each person is rewarded for their input, I am not so sure of, but somewhere in this concept, there has to be an answer. There needs to be continuation of support for much wonderful software developed out there, so that it continues to "live", even if the original author has decided (or been forced) to give it all up. I, personally am actually at the threshold of seeking similar collaboration, with some of my own projects, which have been developed in VB6.
A bonus to creating a collaboration for support, may be that the software may find new markets, which in turn will provide new income streams.

I am interested to hear what other programmers, facing a similar dilemma, see as a solution to this problem that faces many, many of us.
I think that in principle the idea is a good one.

I do occasionally have more work than I can handle in a short space of time which is never easy to say no to.

I don't think that it is necessary to hide behind a contact form on a website. I think it can be an advantage to have the ability to grow and shrink as necessary and also to have bases in multiple countries and languages.

I had been thinking about trying to find some other people to work with.
 

Intelemarketing

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POSSIBLE SOLUTION ?
I do not suggest we are here to con our customers - Most of us would have too much pride in our creations to flag them as "dishonest software".
I have always told my customers what my workforce is - then it is up to them.
Occasionally, I will enter into an agreement with the customer to place all source code into escrow (Lodged with a Lawyer for an annual fee), so that if something happens to me or my company, they would immediately have access to the source code.
This is not a bad idea if there was then a select group of programmers who could be contacted to carry on with the support of the product.

Now this is perhaps the beginning of an idea that could work - and give your customers the faith that their system would not stop, if you "stop".
I wonder how many B4X programmers would be interested in "subscribing" to a list of fellows who would be interested in continuing support under these conditions ?
No money to join the list - All income would be derived directly from the customer by negotiation.

Simplicity
 
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Magma

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I had been thinking about trying to find some other people to work with.
Well... it is difficult to make partnership... is something more than family and friends... the reason... is the "time" and the ..."money" ...yes that green papers (for $) and those colorful euros...

@Intelemarketing you are in mind... same time writting something like it... already post by you...

I am open for patnerships, sharing ideas...

wait for it... i have an idea... I am telling it loud... How about creating something like "Bank of Code" with testaments (if we have kids, family), open source after death, sharing money..
 

Intelemarketing

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Your customers will send you flowers 😄



Everywhere; myriads of developers are better than me 😄
(obviously I'm joking and pretending modesty; actually no one is on my level... in my house, where I live alone 😄)



This is particularly hateful. Even the big Google, despite having thousands of employees, often uses softwares to answer you.


Having many years of experience, you know that there are many software products that no longer exist and this is certainly not due to problems/decisions of individual developers; software produced by giant software houses (this is to say that nothing is certain in life).
I think you should convert your VB6 SWs (this is one of the dead or dying products for many years) to more modern languages/tools and, on the verge of death 😄, hand over the sources to someone.

Alternatively, look with a lantern for a partner who you think is brilliant and whom you trust.


(This morning I'm particularly cynical and I have very little time).
Luca - I am most happy to read your comments - Made my day !
 

udg

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Occasionally, I will enter into an agreement with the customer to place all source code into escrow (Lodged with a Lawyer for an annual fee), so that if something happens to me or my company, they would immediately have access to the source code.
This is not a bad idea if there was then a select group of programmers who could be contacted to carry on with the support of the product.
These are the two key points I originally raised to protect our customers (existing and prospect ones).
Source code availability AND at least one programmer ready to jump in to take our seat (hopefully for a limited time).
The newcomer will sign his/her own agreement with the original customer, so money won't be a problem.
Having a list of possible candidates will give the customer some margin for a choice.

Again, read it as an assurance for the customers. At no cost they will know that they can safely buy our solution because in any case someone will keep the work going on. Something like what they expect from a larger software house.
 

Magma

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@udg These are all good in theory...

But if we speak just for a "programmer" or possible candidates... first they must have the knowledge... not only generally... but specific for the product (source-code)... and also know -> how the end-customer works and what job do...

This is basic, especially for custom software solutions... always have a special way how works... how this happens at the background... and how customer want to work (and how working until now)... This is something need to know before begin working with someone/something...

I think that this need much work, writing, reading, training before someone involved.
 

udg

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@Magma Absolutely. It doesn't suffice to list some expert programmers (B4X programmers in this case) to assure the customer about full operation from day zero.
My goal is simply to tell them that if I die (or eventually I win big money and move far away, quitting programming..heheh) someone will be able to jump in, take care of the existing source code and even develop it further, if it's required at some time.
As said by others, just letting the customer access to source code with nobody able or willing to work on it becomes useless as an assurance.
 

Magma

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...There are also some cases where software communities act as escrow agent...
Ofcourse that can be after request... like this we are trying to do here... not exactly.. talking about it... generally

@udg So we must find a way to share our code, without having the fear loosing our customers, or a member get rich by our work without giving nothing to us...
need to make partners, small groups that will give boost at our work but the same time will boost them too.. hmmm.. can't figure/think a safe road....

ps: as years passed.. I understand the decision of Erel making all free... and opensource...
 

j_o_h_n

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I think it's the wrong conversation to be having.
It's just one of the concerns that a customer might have.
Companies get taken over, go out of business, discontinue models, stop providing spares, change their pricing model.
With software people move to competing products all the time.
The competing software will commonly offer a data migration service.
No one is indispensible.
But if it's too big a concern for them with respect to you, then they should choose some other vendor who gives
them greater confidence for whatever reason.
Or they could take out insurance to cover the eventuality of you not being around.
 

Sandman

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Source code escrow is only half of the solution.
It is entirely reasonable that a source code escrow agreement also specify a direction where the customer can turn to get help maintaining the software.

Such as this forum, Everywhere Software, and/or a list of known organizations with B4X in its services. I don't think it would necessarily be required, or even wanted, to have running agreements with any of these, instead it's up to the customer to initiate discussions with third parties to find a provider that they deem acceptable.

If the customer absolutely require no disruptions regarding updates etc, then this probably isn't the way to go. I can't imagine a situation where somebody would be able to step in day 1 and be productive. If this is a hard requirement from the customer, there is thankfully a working solution for that too: Increase the yearly cost for the customer so the software company can afford to hire at least two more people. Doing so would minimize disruption.

So, in the end it's really up to the customer:
  1. Acceptable to have disruption of development and support, and also acceptable to have your own project to find new company to work with the code: Source code escrow.
  2. Not acceptable with disruption or project: Raise prices (on yearly basis) so you can afford to hire more people.
 

Magma

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@j_o_h_n I think ... sorry for expression... you comparing apples and oranges... why? because custom software always will be there ofcourse until the time will be something better of it, for example a commercial product will cover the needs of customer.

ps: I mean that custom software made for the need of customer after the same customer search all over the world and didn't find nothing for his meters...job

sorry again for the expression...

We need to make the customer feel safe..
 

Magma

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@Sandman The option to have one, two or more persons work in the project must take at the beginning...

after years... need to find a solution... like escrow or something... ofcourse at the end... this will cost higher... so customer must pay for it
 

udg

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So we must find a way to share our code
No. It will be the customer the one holding the source code in case we won't be anylonger able to work on it. Then the customer will have the option to hire one of the programmers on the list we gave at the beginning of our business relationship .
No one will have access to our source code until we quit (in a way or the other..).

The whole point is about a critical point that arises when we (one-man shop) approach a new prospect customer
They may like us (as persons), they may appreciate our product, they agree with our business model. Everything shines. BUT...
then it comes the critical point: "you're alone; what if something happens to you? We are investing time and money on this wonderful project/product, but we risk a lot"

They don't care to have the source code available if there aren't millions (ok, a bit exagerated) of professionals ready to make immediate use of it.
It's the same for a business website. You build it with Wordpress (or any other widespread tool) and they know anybody will be able to maintain it (more or less). You build it with an obscure tool you and a few others know and they risk to have to start from zero once you quit.

Erel is working hard to make the B4X language spread more and more. But we're not yet at the point where it will be easier to hire an B4X programmer than a C/React/PHP (and so on) one. This is true for any new language. Two or three years ago one of the company I work for wasn't able to find a React/React native programmer on the market. Tried with universities, linkedin, specialized platforms..nothing (or, at least, nothing aligned with the company expectations).

So, back to the critical point above. I'd like to simply reply: "don't worry; here it is a list of experts that could go on with the project/product in case I "disappear"..; so, you will have the source code and someone able to make use of it."
 
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Magma

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No. It will be the customer the one holding the source code in case we won't be anylonger able to work on it. Then the customer will have the option to hire one of the programmers on the list we gave at the beginning of our business relationship .
No one will have access to our source code until we quit (in a way or the other..).
But in this way.. the developers will not have the training needed... only will know the end-result, how the customer works... and not the background... will be a "Kinder" suprise (this is not an ad) :) At the other hand is someway secure... But if the code is on hands of end-customer - that means can bypass you anytime... you are loosing...

edit: I am thinking that you mean have the code after death or accident or disappear.. hmmm.. what about if the customer is gangster ?
gangster.gif
:oops:

The whole point is about a critical point that arises when we (one-man shop) approach a new prospect customer
They may like us (as persons), they may appreciate our product, they agree with our business model. Everything shines. BUT...
then it comes the critical point: "you're alone; what if something happens to you? We are investing time and money on this wonderful project/product, but we risk a lot"
Agree!

They don't care to have the source code available if there aren't millions (ok, a bit exagerated) of professionals ready to make immediate use of it.
It's the same for a business website. You build it with Wordpress (or any other widespread tool) and they know anybody will be able to maintain it. You build it with an obscure tool you and a few others know and they risk to to have to start from zero once you quit.
Agree!

Erel is working hard to make the B4X language spread more and more. But we're not yet at the point where it will be easier to hire an B4X programmer than a C/React/PHP (and so on) one. This is true for any new language. Two or three years ago one of the company I work for wasn't able to find a React/React native programmers on the market. Tried with universities, linkedin, specialized platforms..nothing (or, at least, nothing aligned with the company expectations).
I am sorry telling that.. A g r e e ! hope not but it is true - b4x not spread a lot - need universities to use it...
So, back to the critical point above. I'd like to simply reply: "don't worry; here it is a list of experts that could go on with the project/product in case I "disappear"..; so, you will have the source code and someone able to make use of it."
...hmmm
 
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j_o_h_n

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@j_o_h_n I think ... sorry for expression... you comparing apples and oranges... why? because custom software always will be there ofcourse until the time will be something better of it, for example a commercial product will cover the needs of customer.

ps: I mean that custom software made for the need of customer after the same customer search all over the world and didn't find nothing for his meters...job

sorry again for the expression...

We need to make the customer feel safe..
If it's a custom job for one customer then I would just give them the source code and charge them accordingly.
Sorry if I am misunderstanding your situation.
 
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